Question for NotReady

[bunny]

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what reason do you think there are for believing in god, or is it just something you find yourself believing?

chez

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Subjective experience. Admittedly with plenty of competing explanations, one of which is God. I find myself believing it really is God rather than a delusion. (As opposed to choosing or deducing that it is). Surely the fact I believe in God -> I'm not an atheist?

[bunny]

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My main difference with NotReady with regards to morality (I think) is that I dont think something is good because god wants it, I think it is the other way around.


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I hate to nitpick but that's not my position. You've chosen one horn of the Euthyphro dilemma. My position is there is no dilemma. God is good in His nature. The absolute standard of what is good is God. He isn't arbitrary.

" He is light and in Him there is no darkness at all."

Come to think of it, that's not really a nitpick.

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OK - I was sloppy in stating your position. Wouldnt you go on to say that all the acts God wants us to undertake are (by definition) good?

[NotReady]

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Wouldnt you go on to say that all the acts God wants us to undertake are (by definition) good?


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Yes, but He doesn't command arbitrarily or against His nature, which is good in itself.

[bunny]

Understood - apologies for mistating your position. We disagree about something else. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[chezlaw]

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what reason do you think there are for believing in god, or is it just something you find yourself believing?

chez

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Subjective experience. Admittedly with plenty of competing explanations, one of which is God. I find myself believing it really is God rather than a delusion. (As opposed to choosing or deducing that it is). Surely the fact I believe in God -> I'm not an atheist?

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back in the early days of SMP I attempted to capture the concept of atheism as people who believed:

1) there is no reason to believe in god
2) its impossible to prove god doesn't exist

but quickly added 3) and doesn't believe in god

but its 1) and 2) that are the important aspects of atheism from a rationality point of view.

None of the ego points apply to those who claim no more than faith or somesuch.

chez

[Taraz]

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back in the early days of SMP I attempted to capture the concept of atheism as people who believed:

1) there is no reason to believe in god
2) its impossible to prove god doesn't exist

but quickly added 3) and doesn't believe in god

but its 1) and 2) that are the important aspects of atheism from a rationality point of view.

None of the ego points apply to those who claim no more than faith or somesuch.

chez

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So what does agnostic mean?

By the way, I don't think it's fair to peg bunny as an atheist. There are many theists who hold the position that he does. It's a significant subset of theists who you are dismissing. They believe in religion, but aren't fundamentalists.

[Alex-db]

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So the next thing to consider is the consequences of impersonality. I think it's impossible to escape relativism given impersonality as the absolute.

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We can't decide whether impersonality or personality is correct based on which of the inferred consequences we prefer (whether or not the inference is correct).

I may prefer the consequences of Newtonian gravity over relativity, I may be uncomfortable with curvature of space-time, but my preference won't change the way anything actually is, and shouldn't affect the way physicists aim to discover that truth.

[chezlaw]

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So what does agnostic mean?

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up to you mate.What's an agnostic theist?

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By the way, I don't think it's fair to peg bunny as an atheist. There are many theists who hold the position that he does.

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Sure there are many rational theists, it wasn't an insult.

chez

[NotReady]

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We can't decide whether impersonality or personality is correct based on which of the inferred consequences we prefer (whether or not the inference is correct).


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Didn't say we could.

[tpir]

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I think the idea behind this presumption is linked with the notion that humans are the pinnacle of creation

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Its all ego. Center of the universe, important to some almighty god etc

Also the idea that there's some grand scheme with eternal existence of souls yet somehow its this infinitesimal slice of life we happen to be in now that matters so much and decides our eternal fate. Stunning egoism.

chez

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Well put. Kind of hard to expect a rational person to set this aside. I was hoping for some theist responses on this topic because it is really my core objection to religion(s).