WSOP ME Hand: TT facing an overbet - Page 3

jmill2511 · #21 07-24-2007, 06:37 PM

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I've frequently been wrong trying to decipher idiotic preflop monster overbets. As a general rule, I don't do it anymore unless I have to. Attributing logic to one who is illogical is an endeavor unlikely to produce a meaningful result. You have no idea what his bet means (other than he's a moron), because you've never seen it before. Fold, go home.

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Ok

What happens when you have JJ. How about QQ? Still folding?

betgo · #22 07-24-2007, 06:50 PM

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I've frequently been wrong trying to decipher idiotic preflop monster overbets. As a general rule, I don't do it anymore unless I have to. Attributing logic to one who is illogical is an endeavor unlikely to produce a meaningful result. You have no idea what his bet means (other than he's a moron), because you've never seen it before. Fold, go home.

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Ok

What happens when you have JJ. How about QQ? Still folding?

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No I would push QQ. You would probably get allin with QQ if he stnadard raised.

If villain raised 5xBB, you could say he probably has a medium strength hand and wants to take the blinds, so I would be fine with pushing for 25xBB with TT.

Here the play is unusual, so what is he up to. First of all, he set it up so anyone can make the proper size resteal on him. I think we may be falling into a trap by pushing 56xBB preflop.

Also, villain is described as LAG. LAGs usually make small raises. The people who raise 6xBB with AK or TT or something are generally weak/tight, afraid to see a flop, and unwilling to fold a nice hand.

Todd Terry · #23 07-24-2007, 07:00 PM

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I've frequently been wrong trying to decipher idiotic preflop monster overbets. As a general rule, I don't do it anymore unless I have to. Attributing logic to one who is illogical is an endeavor unlikely to produce a meaningful result. You have no idea what his bet means (other than he's a moron), because you've never seen it before. Fold, go home.

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Ok

What happens when you have JJ. How about QQ? Still folding?

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Awesome, the Socratic method. And my parents think I'm not putting my law degree to work by playing poker.

JJ, yes I would fold. QQ, I would call. If the flop came out with undercards, I would bet 1/3 of the pot, and fold if he raised. Just kidding, a little ME final table humor. QQ, I would have to shove preflop.

Yes, this reveals an exploitable flaw in my play -- I'll fold big hands at 2:30 a.m. when I'm out of position and you open for 12X the big blind for the first time in the last hand of the day.

jmill2511 · #24 07-24-2007, 07:26 PM

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Here the play is unusual, so what is he up to. First of all, he set it up so anyone can make the proper size resteal on him. I think we may be falling into a trap by pushing 56xBB preflop.

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Yea, I definitely thought about this, but I just interpret this bet differently. I just don't think the majority of players are thinking on that level.

If lucko had said " Villian is betgo, and raises to 9k" then I would immediately take into consideration that you were trying to exploit someone.

I just really feel like that without turning his cards face up, this guy is trying to tell us that he has a hand he wont fold, but that he doesn't really want action either.

I do agree he's not folding JJ/AK to a shove here though, and both hands are obv very possible.

Also, when lucko says the guy is a LAG and a bit of a donk, I read that as him saying the guy is decent relative to the people he's playing with, but isn't necessarily very good.

Makes me more inclined to jam if that's the case.

Interesting hand either way IMO

betgo · #25 07-24-2007, 07:35 PM

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If lucko had said " Villian is betgo, and raises to 9k" then I would immediately take into consideration that you were trying to exploit someone.

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I don't play that way. I won't make a play with a big pair I wouldn't make with something else. However, you see a lot of that in the $100r and similar tournaments where people will have bet size tells and so on when they have a big pair.

jmill2511 · #26 07-24-2007, 07:44 PM

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I don't play that way. I won't make a play with a big pair I wouldn't make with something else. However, you see a lot of that in the $100r and similar tournaments where people will have bet size tells and so on when they have a big pair.

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Well I didn't really think you'd make that play, or that you play that way at all, I was just using you as an example of a "thinking" player who I would feel is capable of making exploitave plays.

T_Mac · #27 07-24-2007, 07:53 PM

Allin

I actually dont mind flat calling and open pushing any non AKQ flop

Cornell Fiji · #28 07-24-2007, 07:57 PM

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I actually dont mind flat calling and open pushing any non AKQ flop

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explain how this is greater ev against the mid pair/AK/AQ portion of his range.

betgo · #29 07-24-2007, 08:03 PM

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I don't play that way. I won't make a play with a big pair I wouldn't make with something else. However, you see a lot of that in the $100r and similar tournaments where people will have bet size tells and so on when they have a big pair.

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Well I didn't really think you'd make that play, or that you play that way at all, I was just using you as an example of a "thinking" player who I would feel is capable of making exploitave plays.

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I don't see anything in the description of villain that he is afraid of seeing a flop. And if he just wanted to take the pot, why not make it 3.5-6xBB.

I think there is a good chance this is JJ+, AK.

A lot of people will make some kind of play with a big pair that atleast in retrospect telegraphs what they have. I just don't see why that couldn't be what he is doing here.

Dave D · #30 07-24-2007, 08:14 PM

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I actually dont mind flat calling and open pushing any non AKQ flop

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explain how this is greater ev against the mid pair/AK/AQ portion of his range.

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It lets us see more cards and use our better poker playing skillzzz against the opponent than just pushing PF. Pushing PF is EZ, and not really wrong. But if we call and re-evaluate based on what the flop is, we save money in the long run and avoid losing a lot more often.

I think I actually like a check/push better on a non AQK flop, as that lets villian c-bet bluff at it a lot of the time and gets some more out of him there.