Limp/folding dominated hands from MP

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You shouldn't be limping anything from MP. (with some exceptions obv.). But if you are going to limp just open.

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Why?

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That's the spirit. Now your ignore finger ready! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Albert Moulton]

I think it's better to just fold easily dominated hands like KJo, QJ, ATo, etc. from EP and MP alike. I'd rather occasionally open raise 89s than ATo from EP and MP since if I hit my hand and get action it will be better disguised than if I'm trying to play TPWK OOP.

From LP, it's better to raise these hands since you probably have the best hand if it's down to 4-handed, and you might as well steal the blinds rather than give them a chance to flop 2-pair or trips with total trash.

[mvdgaag]

Thanks, Albert.

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I think it's better to just fold easily dominated hands like KJo, QJ, ATo, etc. from EP and MP alike.

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I believe you when you say you think this is so. But I'm more interested why you think so... I feel there is nothing wrong with playing TPWK if you are reasonably sure the WK is the strongest kicker around [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]. Or do you think some players will actually limp behind with AK-AJ? I'm not trying to be stubborn here, but it is hard to see if I'm mistaken if there are no arguments.

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I'd rather occasionally open raise 89s than ATo from EP and MP since if I hit my hand and get action it will be better disguised than if I'm trying to play TPWK OOP.

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I don't see what 98s in EP and MP has to do with easily dominated hands from MP

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From LP, it's better to raise these hands since you probably have the best hand if it's down to 4-handed, and you might as well steal the blinds rather than give them a chance to flop 2-pair or trips with total trash.

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I agree from LP raising would be better, because of all the blinds you pick up and because there is little chance you are dominated anyways. IMO EP is a clear fold most of the time and LP a raise most of the time but I was focussing on MP here.

[MyTurn2Raise]

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open raise

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this is correct

[djkelly69]

do you guys seriously open fold KJ, A10, etc in EP & MP??
maybe i am playing way too LAG...

[SABR42]

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do you guys seriously open fold KJ, A10, etc in EP & MP??
maybe i am playing way too LAG...

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If you are consistently opening KJo and ATo from UTG 9-handed, you are probably way too LAG.

And I say this as a 20/15 player myself.

[djkelly69]

KJ i probably fold UTG, A10o maybe, but A10s, AJo i reckon i am consistantly raising UTG.

Must be the 6-maxer coming out in me

[mvdgaag]

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open raise

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this is correct

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AAAAAH... please: WHY?

I'm getting the feeling that noone here actually thought about the game and just seems to 'know' what is correct without any reasoning to back it up. I know this is not true and I don't want to offend anyone here, but pleaaase; do not just type what is 'correct' without explaining WHY it is 'correct'. There is no point in showing how you all agree on some common knowledge that you share.

[mvdgaag]

Ok... another little example, maybe this will help getting a discussion going.

If you raise AT with only CO, BTN and the blinds left to act then there won't be a hand that dominates you about 85% of the time. The problem is that you will likely get action from a lot the hands that dominate you and only a few others that are still well matched against your hand (also many others would reraise, AA-JJ, whatev). Therefore this 15% is actually a pretty scary number. So you should not realy want to play this and most your profit is likely to come from the times you pick up the blinds IMO.

Suppose you can expect to be raised 50% of the time when you limp (certainly not a best case assumption). You will have to lose 0.5 big blinds on average when you are forced to fold. But the times when you are limped behind you are likely to have a strong, well disguised (given you also limp SC's and small pairs sometimes) and very unlikely to be dominated hand that will easily make up for those 0.5 big blinds in postflop play. Actually you are a lot more likely to be dominating someone that limped a weak suited ace.

If your opponents will call and fold to cbets a lot, even with position, or you can get them to fold the best hand very often if you were the preflop agressor and have a hard time playing if you were not. And finally if you can often steal the blinds from MP... Than raising might be the best play.

[threads13]

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Ok... another little example, maybe this will help getting a discussion going.

If you raise AT with only CO, BTN and the blinds left to act then there won't be a hand that dominates you about 85% of the time. The problem is that you will likely get action from a lot the hands that dominate you and only a few others that are still well matched against your hand (also many others would reraise, AA-JJ, whatev). Therefore this 15% is actually a pretty scary number. So you should not realy want to play this and most your profit is likely to come from the times you pick up the blinds IMO.

Suppose you can expect to be raised 50% of the time when you limp (certainly not a best case assumption). You will have to lose 0.5 big blinds on average when you are forced to fold. But the times when you are limped behind you are likely to have a strong, well disguised (given you also limp SC's and small pairs sometimes) and very unlikely to be dominated hand that will easily make up for those 0.5 big blinds in postflop play. Actually you are a lot more likely to be dominating someone that limped a weak suited ace.

If your opponents will call and fold to cbets a lot, even with position, or you can get them to fold the best hand very often if you were the preflop agressor and have a hard time playing if you were not. And finally if you can often steal the blinds from MP... Than raising might be the best play.

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I think you are having some good thoughts here. You should also consider looking on the other side of the argument. What good spots can raising create that you aren't thinking of? What bad spots can limping create that you aren't thinking of?