Harrah's Makes Good Floor Decision?

[Crane]

Sure, you should protect your hand, but it's real easy for a dealer to just scoop up your cards. I had the same thing happen to me in a 150-300 stud game with a $2000 pot. I turned over my hand on the river showing two pair--the other guy (disgustedly) turned over his cards--one pair--and in the blink of an eye the dealer scooped up my hand--mucked it--and pushed the other guy the pot.

Try "protecting" your hand in a stud game. Have you ever seen stud players holding onto all of their cards at the river like a mother hen. No, they spread them out so the hand can be read. I eventually got the pot, but that's not the point.

Yea, it's easier to "protect" your hand in a hold'em game, but 95% of the time most players just table their hand at the river for all to see. It's very easy for an incompetent dealer to just reach over and grab your cards, especially if you're sitting in the one or nine seat.

This is just a case of a bad dealer getting too far ahead of themselves. As long as other players at the table, including the dealer, saw your hand, and the other guy mucked, then you had the winner. It's your pot. Showing one of your cards to a neighbor doesn't count for anything.

Getting the $40 is fine, but it's not the correct ruling. This sounds to me like a case of the floor wanting to spread a little good will and make everybody happy. What do you think the ruling would have been if the pot had been $2000?

[pvn]

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No this was not a good ruling. Though the dealer acted incorrectly you stood by and allowed the dealer to muck your hand (and didn't make any effort to protect your hand) then waited until the pot was pushed to the other player and the other player gave up his hand to dealer and then objected.

What the floor person did was invite you to take this shot again and again.

If the floor wanted to give you back $40 as some sort of goodwill gesture it should have been accompanied by a lecture that you failed to prtect your hand and that he is giving you this break this time, but you are responsible to protect your hand in the future.

It is apparent that the floorperson left you with the impression that you were entitled to the pot here when the opposite is true.

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What "shot"? Tabling your hand is an angle shot now? What a joke. Cards speak, a hand which is tabled at showdown IS "protected".

[pvn]

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Protect my exposed hand? I'm a bit confused. She mucked it the moment I turned it face up.

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Yes protect it from her mucking it. Hold it speak up and say something.

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I believe by turning my hand over after villain checks I am in a showdown for the pot. How is that an angle shot?

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The angle shot is that you didn't object until the pot was pushed and the other player relinquished his hand, now you wanted to win the pot without having to beat your opponent. if you spoke up right away your opponenet would still have his hand and you you would win if your hand was better than his.

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The whole time the dealer was admitting that she messed up. I think my big error was stating that I think I lost. What would have been different if I had just turned up my cards and not said anything?

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Of course the dealer screwed up noone disputes that. Your stating thatyou lost may have confused the dealer, but your big error here wasn't that --it was letting the dealer muck your hand and push the pot without saying a word.

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I had the only hand that was face up.

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No you didn't. Your hand was face down in the muck. And you let it get there without any objection.

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Blame the victim. Sick.

[pvn]

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No this was not a good ruling. Though the dealer acted incorrectly you stood by and allowed the dealer to muck your hand (and didn't make any effort to protect your hand) then waited until the pot was pushed to the other player and the other player gave up his hand to dealer and then objected.

What the floor person did was invite you to take this shot again and again.

If the floor wanted to give you back $40 as some sort of goodwill gesture it should have been accompanied by a lecture that you failed to prtect your hand and that he is giving you this break this time, but you are responsible to protect your hand in the future.

It is apparent that the floorperson left you with the impression that you were entitled to the pot here when the opposite is true.

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What "shot"? Tabling your hand is an angle shot now? What a joke. Cards speak, a hand which is tabled at showdown IS "protected".

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I'm so disgusted by your attitude that I want to expand on this a bit. The OP *IS* entitled to this pot, he's the only person who made a claim to it by tabling a hand.

The reason people say to hang on to your cards until you get the pot is only because dealers make mistakes, not because the rules require you to.

Your position is basically the same as saying that once a mugger gets your wallet, you're not entitled to it because you didn't hang on to it hard enough.

[pvn]

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If the dealer was able to muck your hand, you failed to protect it.

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Wrong. He tabled it.

[TMTTR]

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If the dealer was able to muck your hand, you failed to protect it.

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Wrong. He tabled it.

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Wrong. The pot wasn't awarded. You keep your cards until you know you have lost or the pot is being shipped to you. Once his cards were put in the muck (erroneously), the only live hand was his opponents. Dealers often misread hands and you cannot relinquish your cards until you are certain that the dealer is properly awarding the pot.

There was severe dealer error here -- no question about it -- but as the story is told it is nearly 100% certain that the player with the best hand won the pot. If the dealer had not mucked OP's hand, it appears clear that his opponent would have shown his hand and won.

[TMTTR]

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Sure, you should protect your hand, but it's real easy for a dealer to just scoop up your cards. I had the same thing happen to me in a 150-300 stud game with a $2000 pot. I turned over my hand on the river showing two pair--the other guy (disgustedly) turned over his cards--one pair--and in the blink of an eye the dealer scooped up my hand--mucked it--and pushed the other guy the pot.

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Generally, I find it easier to protect my hand (or at least the unexposed cards in my hand) while playing stud. If you don't collect your cards for the dealer, they need to go through the effort of turning them over and pulling them in. Also, if you at least protect your down cards, you have proof for the floor of the dealer error when they grab your up cards. Also, you just need to be attentive to your hand regardless of whether you are actually touching it. Except for online dealers (who are really fast), it is very difficult for a dealer to scoop up all seven of your cards in "a blink of an eye." More likely, you were ignoring your own hand and focusing on your opponent's hand across the table for several seconds to figure out what he had while the dealer grabbed your cards and improperly mucked them. Dealers make mistakes. What happened in your situation? Did you call the floor?

[bav]

This is probably exactly the sorta reason the TDA specifically has a rule that says "Dealers cannot kill a winning hand that was tabled..." Once you flip your cards up, you can stop protecting them from the dealer--they're playing even if the dealer grabs 'em and eats 'em.

I think 99 wins the pot, except for the little part about keeping silent as it all transpired (and that's a big except that totally changes the outcome). If it all happened so fast he couldn't possibly stop it, that's one thing. 99 tabled a hand, everybody saw it, it plays even if the dealer mucks it. But it's not that simple here...

I agree with psand that OP cannot lean back in his chair and watch his hand get mucked, watch the other player share his hand with another player, let him muck it, and THEN say "my pot!" You had plenty of time to stop this and I think your silence means you've given up your chance to claim the pot.

[iversonian]

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I'm no dealer, pro, expert, etc., but from what I've read here, you should have won the pot.

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Really, now? Let's try this one...

I was playing this hand earlier. I had an Ace-rag, flopped an ace. Called a bet on the flop, turn went check-check. When I checked the river, the other guy turned over nines and said he knew it wasn't any good. The dealer mucked his hand and pushed the pot to me. I showed my friend the ace and mucked. After both hands were firmly in the muck, the other guy then raises hell saying that he should get the pot. So the floor came over and gave him the pot.

Posting floor rulings on B&M doesn't mean let's all commiserate with OP. It's - let's try to figure out the fair ruling.

[Poseidon65]

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I was playing this hand earlier. I had an Ace-rag, flopped an ace. Called a bet on the flop, turn went check-check. When I checked the river, the other guy turned over nines and said he knew it wasn't any good. The dealer mucked his hand and pushed the pot to me. I showed my friend the ace and mucked. After both hands were firmly in the muck, the other guy then raises hell saying that he should get the pot. So the floor came over and gave him the pot.

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You really expected them to push you the pot without demonstrating that you can beat a tabled hand? He showed 9's and you mucked; the pot was pushed to you in error.