1/2 Light calldown oop with QQ

[Renton]

[ QUOTE ]
One thing I have noticed, people critique how things are played, but dont give their own opinion. If betting is horrible, and check raising is horrible, your saying the best play is to check call or check fold once we see the ace?

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting is weak because your hand is too strong to bluff with and not strong enough lead for value.

Checkraising is weak because your hand is too strong to bluff with and not strong enough to check raise for value with.

Checkcalling is the superior play because you have a hand that beats his range to bet the flop.

And about the ace hitting, thats only going to happen on 1 in 12 turns. Mostly the turns going to be a blank and you'll get to check call again. Or you can bet out the turn and win the pot on a bluff/semibluff.

[mce86]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I have noticed, people critique how things are played, but dont give their own opinion. If betting is horrible, and check raising is horrible, your saying the best play is to check call or check fold once we see the ace?

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting is weak because your hand is too strong to bluff with and not strong enough lead for value.

Checkraising is weak because your hand is too strong to bluff with and not strong enough to check raise for value with.

Checkcalling is the superior play because you have a hand that beats his range to bet the flop.

And about the ace hitting, thats only going to happen on 1 in 12 turns. Mostly the turns going to be a blank and you'll get to check call again. Or you can bet out the turn and win the pot on a bluff/semibluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we talking my hand or yours here?

Let's look at what the optimal play would be after we have seen his cards. He had a flush draw...and you checked the turn giving him a free chance to make his hand. Villian decides to semi-bluff this ace..now youre worried he has AK or AT...when the heart hits, it adds to the confusion. What would you do on the turn knowing what he had? Well, if you knew he was going to bet, which you should since he has been playing back at you, you can check, and then get his entire stack in on a draw by check raising, or you can charge him for his draw on the turn with a decent bet. Or, you can check, and call. Check and call IMO is the worst.

[Renton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One thing I have noticed, people critique how things are played, but dont give their own opinion. If betting is horrible, and check raising is horrible, your saying the best play is to check call or check fold once we see the ace?

[/ QUOTE ]

Betting is weak because your hand is too strong to bluff with and not strong enough lead for value.

Checkraising is weak because your hand is too strong to bluff with and not strong enough to check raise for value with.

Checkcalling is the superior play because you have a hand that beats his range to bet the flop.

And about the ace hitting, thats only going to happen on 1 in 12 turns. Mostly the turns going to be a blank and you'll get to check call again. Or you can bet out the turn and win the pot on a bluff/semibluff.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we talking my hand or yours here?

Let's look at what the optimal play would be after we have seen his cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yours, and NO! Results are irrelevant to knowing the best way to play your hand.




My thread has derailed. Its obvious that I missplayed it and probably should have checkfolded at some point.

results: he has 33

[Mr_Donktastic]

[ QUOTE ]
ok well lets talk about hand reading

agree or disagree:

1. His flop play is suspect. Flop just call defines his range as being either a set or a weaker pair than QQ (example being 99, 88, Tx, MAYBE JJ). He'd probably shove an over pair or a straight bluff. However I will admit that he's slightly capable of calling AK (but honestly i think he'd raise it or fold). He could have a draw, but i think he'd probably jam the pot with any flush draw.

2. Given the above, turn doesn't change a whole lot, right? AT just became a monster, thats about it. And probably he folds AT preflop, unless maybe its suited. On the flop I put him on having a set or a weak pair. So going with that, i'm either as dead as i was on the flop (e.g. with him having a set), or im losing to an unlikely AK (REMEMBER HE 4BET QQ BEFORE, so its extremely reasonable to assume that he would have 4bet AK preflop). He could still have a draw.

3. So I check turn. AA is a crap card for him if he has a set, because now he thinks he isn't getting paid. I think he checks back sets on this turn a good bit, OR he bets more and hopes i hit the Ace (we're deep remember). He chose option 3, the weakish <2/3 pot bet. This is suspect.

4. I call. River made a draw but who cares, he'd probably have checked back the turn or raise the flop with a draw, and on top of that im getting really good pot odds. My reads suggest he's bluffing, and he doesn't need to be bluffing but like 23% of the time to make it a plus ev call, so its an obvious call.


FWIW, the turn is a lot more of a fold than the river is, IMO

[/ QUOTE ]

1. I agree he would shove a draw and raise an overpair, unless he had AA because every donk seems to love to play AA tricky. I would give more credit to him calling with AK but if you think he would 4 bet AK then you gotta go with that. Any reason not to bet a little more on the flop? Like $40?

2. Agree...only changes things if he has AK.

3. Check is good. I don't see his turn bet size as being THAT suspect? If he has a set you think he would bet the pot? I get the opposite read sometimes that the smallish bet means strength...guess it depends on villain.

4. When he bets the river again I always think "mofo. he really does have AK". ALOT of villains will give up on the river and just check it down instead of bluff, so I think its a reasonable assumption to make at 200nl. However if you have a good read on this guy and think he is bluffing enough to make the call, then go for it.

[Jurrr]

[ QUOTE ]
We bet for three reasons:

1. For value. Our goal is to make them call with worse.
or
2. As a bluff. Our goal is to make them fold better.
or
3. As a semibluff. We don't care if they call or fold, we make money either way in the long run.

seeing where we stand doesn't fit under any of those three categories.

In poker, you need to know which of these three reasons is your reason for betting. Otherwise you are just betting for no reason, and that is usually bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
But what about this "merging your range" and "value-bluffing" thingy the big boys at MSNL discuss?
Seriously though what do you think of that concept?

[ QUOTE ]
Let's look at what the optimal play would be after we have seen his cards. *snip*

[/ QUOTE ]Lol but you don't really play against his CARDS.

[ QUOTE ]
Results are irrelevant to knowing the best way to play your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]Results sometimes confirm reads. The fact that your villain showed 33 here makes it more likely that air (which 33 is equivalent to in this hand) is a significant part of his range, as per your read.

I would fold the turn but I'm not as good a player as you are. Nh.