return to FTP 3/6, part 1

[DJ Sensei]

dudes, EVERYBODY raises 95% of their range to this flop donk sometimes, I mean what can I be donking with on such a dry board that can stand much heat?

and once i call flop, how else is he gonna win the pot with 8 high or whatever other than betting turn strong? yea he smokes me with AQ+, but I kinda doubt he'd raise this flop with a hand that strong, I mean why would he?


there is definitely some merit to c/c turn, but since i have to call down anyhow if I do that, i'd just as soon not let him have a free shot at 2-6 outs. plus, who's firing 3 barrels here against somebody calling them on this board? Also this is more of an "in your face, sucka!" line, which will probably get him to slow down against me in the future, and I definitely like that.

[Requin]

[ QUOTE ]

there is definitely some merit to c/c turn, but since i have to call down anyhow if I do that, i'd just as soon not let him have a free shot at 2-6 outs.

[/ QUOTE ] Eh???
Dude no offense this line is just awful.

[Josh.]

that's a really strange flop to lead out at. i'd imagine this is exactly what you wanted to happen, so yeah i can't imagine folding given all this.

but since his range is completely polarized between monsters and bluffs, why don't you call the turn, and fold if he shoves the river? is anyone bluffing here for half pot? you look like you have AQ or AJ. even if you think you have to clal the river, i like that better than this. at worst you give him a free shot at a 4 outer

[DJ Sensei]

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[ QUOTE ]

there is definitely some merit to c/c turn, but since i have to call down anyhow if I do that, i'd just as soon not let him have a free shot at 2-6 outs.

[/ QUOTE ] Eh???
Dude no offense this line is just awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

because if i call turn i should c/f river and save that money?
or because he doesnt have outs so I shouldnt be concerned?
or because you think he does fire a 3rd barrel often enough that its more +EV to c/c river?

[Josh.]

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there is definitely some merit to c/c turn, but since i have to call down anyhow if I do that, i'd just as soon not let him have a free shot at 2-6 outs.

[/ QUOTE ] Eh???
Dude no offense this line is just awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

because if i call turn i should c/f river and save that money?
or because he doesnt have outs so I shouldnt be concerned?
or because you think he does fire a 3rd barrel often enough that its more +EV to c/c river?

[/ QUOTE ]


yeah calling and playing poker on the river is the fundamentally correct play, for all the same reasons that we can't just c/c the flop in that aba JJ on 876sss flop. even if you're not sure you can play the river that well, it's better than protecting against what is at most 5 outs, and usually 0, 2, or 4. other than that, it's 50 bb of valueless money

[Requin]

What Josh said

[aislephive]

[ QUOTE ]
dudes, EVERYBODY raises 95% of their range to this flop donk sometimes, I mean what can I be donking with on such a dry board that can stand much heat?

and once i call flop, how else is he gonna win the pot with 8 high or whatever other than betting turn strong? yea he smokes me with AQ+, but I kinda doubt he'd raise this flop with a hand that strong, I mean why would he?


there is definitely some merit to c/c turn, but since i have to call down anyhow if I do that, i'd just as soon not let him have a free shot at 2-6 outs. plus, who's firing 3 barrels here against somebody calling them on this board? Also this is more of an "in your face, sucka!" line, which will probably get him to slow down against me in the future, and I definitely like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you made a good case for why calling is superior to shoving. It's very unlikely that he would bluff the river after this action on this board with these stacks etc., so when we call the turn we can pretty confidently c/f the river right? Yeah there is a chance he has as many as 6 outs, but typically when we're ahead has no more than 2-4 and quite often drawing dead. Also, raising the turn is guaranteed to get us owned when he actually isn't bluffing. Considering we can pretty confidently c/f the river after calling the turn (and he doesn't know this of course, and should expect us to c/c often) we also lose less when he isn't bluffing.

For example, let's say our plan is to call the turn and c/f the river unimproved. Say he has AK (or anything else he would take this line for value with), and we follow through with our plan and call his turn bet and fold the river. Now compare that with your line of shoving the turn, now we lose another 50bbs which we would not have lost if we had taken the previously mentioned line. There is the possibility that he decides to make some hero bluff at the end and occasionally we fold the winner, but again I'd say that's extremely unlikely. I think losing significantly more when he isn't bluffing is a lot more of a concern than that or giving him a chance to hit his 4-8% draw.

[HiiroYuy]

sick play.

[DJ Sensei]

do yall think he ever gets to the turn like this with a weak ace, says "oh crap what have i done" and turns it into a bluff? (and folds to a c/r, obv)

[dtan05]

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do yall think he ever gets to the turn like this with a weak ace, says "oh crap what have i done" and turns it into a bluff? (and folds to a c/r, obv)

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, a lot of the time, actually.