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#22
07-10-2007, 12:44 PM
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Re: Foxwoods - 1/2: AQ on AA5 board
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I bet $20. (yes it's a small bet but I do have trips w/ good kicker and there are no draws. comments on this bet size appreciated though) BB insta pushes for his remaining $64. One other player calls $64 [/ QUOTE ] Let's see you raise PF from SB to 8 times big blind get 3 callers. Signals a strong hand to your opponents. You bet $20 into the pot get raised all in for BBs remaining $64 and another limper calls who has you covered. There's only one more Ace out and there's no flush draw and the only straight draw is a 23, 24, or 34 gut shot. Your opponents certainly have to entertain the possibility that you have an Ace yet one raises and gets a cold call with only one more Ace in the deck. What can you beat from these two opponents????????? I think it's a clear fold FWIW. [/ QUOTE ] I think you're really underestimating how truly awful most live 1/2 games are. Most of those players aren't even considering anything but their own cards. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe but what hands can both players really like with this board that doesn't contain an Ace that they'd go all in with and call big bets with knowing that their call didn't close the action????????????? [/ QUOTE ] What I mean is these players are probably thinking, "ZOMG, I have an ace! I can't lose, so I'll just check-call because that's super trappy and Negreanu-ish!" Do they have 55 sometimes? Sure. But if they do, the OP isn't going to fold his AQ at any point, and since it's live, the cards will be the same regardless of when he shoves. I'd rather just get it in now than start slowplaying and let the occasional 77 turn a full house. [/ QUOTE ] But there's only one Ace left and that makes it clear that one of them doesn't have an Ace. They didn't check call either. [/ QUOTE ] Okay...the point is: he's not folding this hand. There's no need to slowplay and let some donkey with 77 turn a full house. There's plenty of money in the pot, and that overshove is so sexy. I don't agree with ANYTHING but shoving right now. 
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#23
07-10-2007, 12:47 PM
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Re: Foxwoods - 1/2: AQ on AA5 board
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TT+ QQ and A8x+? It's a pretty good board for any PP if you don't believe that somebody has trip aces, which people usually don't. Just because you raised and bet the flop, I'm going to put you on trip aces? Come on, i have jacks! [/ QUOTE ] What I stated was that your opponents certainly have to entertain the possibility that hero has an Ace. Since hero has an Ace only one of his opponents can have an Ace and the other one doesn't. Obviously the player in last position in this hand isn't too concerned about an Ace in someone's hand.
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#24
07-10-2007, 12:53 PM
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Re: Foxwoods - 1/2: AQ on AA5 board
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I bet $20. (yes it's a small bet but I do have trips w/ good kicker and there are no draws. comments on this bet size appreciated though) BB insta pushes for his remaining $64. One other player calls $64 [/ QUOTE ] Let's see you raise PF from SB to 8 times big blind get 3 callers. Signals a strong hand to your opponents. You bet $20 into the pot get raised all in for BBs remaining $64 and another limper calls who has you covered. There's only one more Ace out and there's no flush draw and the only straight draw is a 23, 24, or 34 gut shot. Your opponents certainly have to entertain the possibility that you have an Ace yet one raises and gets a cold call with only one more Ace in the deck. What can you beat from these two opponents????????? I think it's a clear fold FWIW. [/ QUOTE ] I think you're really underestimating how truly awful most live 1/2 games are. Most of those players aren't even considering anything but their own cards. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe but what hands can both players really like with this board that doesn't contain an Ace that they'd go all in with and call big bets with knowing that their call didn't close the action????????????? [/ QUOTE ] What I mean is these players are probably thinking, "ZOMG, I have an ace! I can't lose, so I'll just check-call because that's super trappy and Negreanu-ish!" Do they have 55 sometimes? Sure. But if they do, the OP isn't going to fold his AQ at any point, and since it's live, the cards will be the same regardless of when he shoves. I'd rather just get it in now than start slowplaying and let the occasional 77 turn a full house. [/ QUOTE ] But there's only one Ace left and that makes it clear that one of them doesn't have an Ace. They didn't check call either. [/ QUOTE ] Okay...the point is: he's not folding this hand. There's no need to slowplay and let some donkey with 77 turn a full house. There's plenty of money in the pot, and that overshove is so sexy. I don't agree with ANYTHING but shoving right now. [/ QUOTE ] First of all it doesn't matter if all in player has 77. From last position players perspective he certainly has to entertain the strong possibility that at least hero or BB has an Ace. Last position player isn't concerned about that. What you're stating is that hero as BB outkicked and late position player will call an all in raise with underpair that he didn't raise with pre-flop and that he'll call an all in re-raise from our hero. That's a parlay that's got to come in three different ways instead of two. Two makes it a fold IMO. All of I've read so far is that since hero has a good hand he shouldn't be concerned with what the other players because they're not concerned with what hero has or something like that. Seems like fishy play to me. Also in NL if someone's going to donate their money to your stack IMO you can find a better spot and that would usually be in a heads up situation. If this was a head's up situation I'd call most likely but it's not and the board is paired which means that an opponent can readily get a good idea when their one pair is beaten. Especially in a three player pot like this.
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#25
07-10-2007, 01:20 PM
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Re: Foxwoods - 1/2: AQ on AA5 board
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I bet $20. (yes it's a small bet but I do have trips w/ good kicker and there are no draws. comments on this bet size appreciated though) BB insta pushes for his remaining $64. One other player calls $64 [/ QUOTE ] Let's see you raise PF from SB to 8 times big blind get 3 callers. Signals a strong hand to your opponents. You bet $20 into the pot get raised all in for BBs remaining $64 and another limper calls who has you covered. There's only one more Ace out and there's no flush draw and the only straight draw is a 23, 24, or 34 gut shot. Your opponents certainly have to entertain the possibility that you have an Ace yet one raises and gets a cold call with only one more Ace in the deck. What can you beat from these two opponents????????? I think it's a clear fold FWIW. [/ QUOTE ] I think you're really underestimating how truly awful most live 1/2 games are. Most of those players aren't even considering anything but their own cards. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe but what hands can both players really like with this board that doesn't contain an Ace that they'd go all in with and call big bets with knowing that their call didn't close the action????????????? [/ QUOTE ] What I mean is these players are probably thinking, "ZOMG, I have an ace! I can't lose, so I'll just check-call because that's super trappy and Negreanu-ish!" Do they have 55 sometimes? Sure. But if they do, the OP isn't going to fold his AQ at any point, and since it's live, the cards will be the same regardless of when he shoves. I'd rather just get it in now than start slowplaying and let the occasional 77 turn a full house. [/ QUOTE ] But there's only one Ace left and that makes it clear that one of them doesn't have an Ace. They didn't check call either. [/ QUOTE ] Okay...the point is: he's not folding this hand. There's no need to slowplay and let some donkey with 77 turn a full house. There's plenty of money in the pot, and that overshove is so sexy. I don't agree with ANYTHING but shoving right now. [/ QUOTE ] First of all it doesn't matter if all in player has 77. From last position players perspective he certainly has to entertain the strong possibility that at least hero or BB has an Ace. Last position player isn't concerned about that. What you're stating is that hero as BB outkicked and late position player will call an all in raise with underpair that he didn't raise with pre-flop and that he'll call an all in re-raise from our hero. That's a parlay that's got to come in three different ways instead of two. Two makes it a fold IMO. All of I've read so far is that since hero has a good hand he shouldn't be concerned with what the other players because they're not concerned with what hero has or something like that. Seems like fishy play to me. Also in NL if someone's going to donate their money to your stack IMO you can find a better spot and that would usually be in a heads up situation. If this was a head's up situation I'd call most likely but it's not and the board is paired which means that an opponent can readily get a good idea when their one pair is beaten. Especially in a three player pot like this. [/ QUOTE ] you've obviously never played foxwoods 1/2NL
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#27
07-10-2007, 03:14 PM
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Re: Foxwoods - 1/2: AQ on AA5 board
All these responses bring me back to my original point with this hand. How is jensen reading me right now in this game. He has seen me with a huge bluff with 86s against his Aces, but other than that, I would think I was generally viewed as a pretty solid player, at least for a 1/2NL game at Foxwoods. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
I don't think I could fold here either with AQ, but if you think through the hand whorasuarus's conclusion should be right most of the time. I limp in, which I do a lot in a live 1/2 game (would rather play post flop against these players), so I could have anything so far. SB makes it $16. Healthy raise at this table so far. 3 other callers, no way I'm folding pocket pair. Now, when Hero bets small into A5A board with 4 limp callers, he has to have a pretty big Ace against 4 callers in a 1/2 game. BB instantly goes all in, so now I'm thinking they both have to have an A. Hero with AK-AJ, BB most likely with A-rag. I figured I had to avoid 6 cards. My smooth call should have made Heor very suspicious. Deduction is that bad player in BB has to have A-rag (I'm sure we both thought this), and he has a big Ace. I smoothed called, seemingly not worried about 2 people most likely with Aces. But in the end, in a 1/2 game, I'd most likely end up doing exactly the same thing as jenson, pushing in on the turn with my remaining $125. Cooler, not many people can fold there in a 1/2 game. -Mark
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#28
07-10-2007, 03:43 PM
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Re: Foxwoods - 1/2: AQ on AA5 board
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I bet $20. (yes it's a small bet but I do have trips w/ good kicker and there are no draws. comments on this bet size appreciated though) BB insta pushes for his remaining $64. One other player calls $64 [/ QUOTE ] Let's see you raise PF from SB to 8 times big blind get 3 callers. Signals a strong hand to your opponents. You bet $20 into the pot get raised all in for BBs remaining $64 and another limper calls who has you covered. There's only one more Ace out and there's no flush draw and the only straight draw is a 23, 24, or 34 gut shot. Your opponents certainly have to entertain the possibility that you have an Ace yet one raises and gets a cold call with only one more Ace in the deck. What can you beat from these two opponents????????? I think it's a clear fold FWIW. [/ QUOTE ] I think you're really underestimating how truly awful most live 1/2 games are. Most of those players aren't even considering anything but their own cards. [/ QUOTE ] Maybe but what hands can both players really like with this board that doesn't contain an Ace that they'd go all in with and call big bets with knowing that their call didn't close the action????????????? [/ QUOTE ] What I mean is these players are probably thinking, "ZOMG, I have an ace! I can't lose, so I'll just check-call because that's super trappy and Negreanu-ish!" Do they have 55 sometimes? Sure. But if they do, the OP isn't going to fold his AQ at any point, and since it's live, the cards will be the same regardless of when he shoves. I'd rather just get it in now than start slowplaying and let the occasional 77 turn a full house. [/ QUOTE ] But there's only one Ace left and that makes it clear that one of them doesn't have an Ace. They didn't check call either. [/ QUOTE ] Okay...the point is: he's not folding this hand. There's no need to slowplay and let some donkey with 77 turn a full house. There's plenty of money in the pot, and that overshove is so sexy. I don't agree with ANYTHING but shoving right now. [/ QUOTE ] First of all it doesn't matter if all in player has 77. From last position players perspective he certainly has to entertain the strong possibility that at least hero or BB has an Ace. Last position player isn't concerned about that. What you're stating is that hero as BB outkicked and late position player will call an all in raise with underpair that he didn't raise with pre-flop and that he'll call an all in re-raise from our hero. That's a parlay that's got to come in three different ways instead of two. Two makes it a fold IMO. All of I've read so far is that since hero has a good hand he shouldn't be concerned with what the other players because they're not concerned with what hero has or something like that. Seems like fishy play to me. Also in NL if someone's going to donate their money to your stack IMO you can find a better spot and that would usually be in a heads up situation. If this was a head's up situation I'd call most likely but it's not and the board is paired which means that an opponent can readily get a good idea when their one pair is beaten. Especially in a three player pot like this. [/ QUOTE ] you've obviously never played LIVE 1/2NL [/ QUOTE ] FYP
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#29
07-10-2007, 05:36 PM
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Re: Foxwoods - 1/2: AQ on AA5 board
[ QUOTE ]
All these responses bring me back to my original point with this hand. How is jensen reading me right now in this game. He has seen me with a huge bluff with 86s against his Aces, but other than that, I would think I was generally viewed as a pretty solid player, at least for a 1/2NL game at Foxwoods. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] I don't think I could fold here either with AQ, but if you think through the hand whorasuarus's conclusion should be right most of the time. I limp in, which I do a lot in a live 1/2 game (would rather play post flop against these players), so I could have anything so far. SB makes it $16. Healthy raise at this table so far. 3 other callers, no way I'm folding pocket pair. Now, when Hero bets small into A5A board with 4 limp callers, he has to have a pretty big Ace against 4 callers in a 1/2 game. BB instantly goes all in, so now I'm thinking they both have to have an A. Hero with AK-AJ, BB most likely with A-rag. I figured I had to avoid 6 cards. My smooth call should have made Heor very suspicious. Deduction is that bad player in BB has to have A-rag (I'm sure we both thought this), and he has a big Ace. I smoothed called, seemingly not worried about 2 people most likely with Aces. But in the end, in a 1/2 game, I'd most likely end up doing exactly the same thing as jenson, pushing in on the turn with my remaining $125. Cooler, not many people can fold there in a 1/2 game. -Mark [/ QUOTE ] So obviously you can beat trip Aces on the flop. I've never played Foxwoods 1/2 NL. I replied to OP in this thread because I wanted to make a point about paired boards. You have to be careful IMO in playing a big pot when you have trips on a paired board. If someone can't beat trips they're going to have to be convinced totally that you're bluffing to put a lot of money in the pot after the flop.
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#30
07-10-2007, 06:13 PM
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Re: Foxwoods - 1/2: AQ on AA5 board
Some of the replies in this thread, even by villain in this hand are laughable, and the sheer stupidity in this thread makes me want to gouge my eyes out..
The BB in this hand as being described as horrible, barley knowing how to play, and a total donk. He can have a [censored] 5 here for pete's sake. His range here is infinite basically, I mean he can literally have anything here. The fact that a LP limper coldcalled a raise from a donk, shouldn't be throwing up warning singals anywhere. His coldcall is a worse A almost always, barley ever 55. Also, if from the post of villains point of view, if you think that SB has a good A here you should be shoving. The people who said fold, wow... Anyone who says anything but a shove is an idiot.
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