25nl KTs vs flop donk

[kitchma]

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PF meh.

Postflop, nh.

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Why is PF "meh"? Isn't this a pretty standard raise from the CO with only one limper?

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i think aj has more knowledge than me but this is my default play... this is prob due to different playing styles though.

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No way AJ knows more than me! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Seriously though, I make this play all the time to steal the blinds and button. Is this a leak?

[ajmargarine]

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PF meh.

Postflop, nh.

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Why is PF "meh"? Isn't this a pretty standard raise from the CO with only one limper?

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i think aj has more knowledge than me but this is my default play... this is prob due to different playing styles though.

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No way AJ knows more than me! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
Seriously though, I make this play all the time to steal the blinds and button. Is this a leak?

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no, it's not a leak.

to clarify my "meh" [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

I meant "whatever" "pretty standard"

I will usually raise this up when metagame hasn't been established at the table yet. If there's some metagame going on, it **might** be a spot I'd pass on and fold with 3 people behind me.

[ajmargarine]

re: limping vs pfr'ing

when you limp, you play "hit to win" to win the pot

when you pfr--

1. you can take it down pf
2. you can take it down with a CB, continuing your aggression, on the flop.
3. you can still hit to win

hit to win -- means, must have best hand at showdown to win the pot.

PFR'ing gives you two more ways to win the pot. And, PFR'ing here should give you a solid image for your bigger hands. You are PFR'ing KTs here, not for this hand, but for that hand down the road when you have AA/monster.

[gumpzilla]

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re: limping vs pfr'ing

when you limp, you play "hit to win" to win the pot

when you pfr--

1. you can take it down pf
2. you can take it down with a CB, continuing your aggression, on the flop.
3. you can still hit to win

hit to win -- means, must have best hand at showdown to win the pot.

PFR'ing gives you two more ways to win the pot. And, PFR'ing here should give you a solid image for your bigger hands. You are PFR'ing KTs here, not for this hand, but for that hand down the road when you have AA/monster.

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I see unraised pots get taken down with flop bets pretty often - my BB specials certainly don't seem to get much love on average - so I don't think that limping behind rules out betting on the flop. Also, since raising will lead to narrower ranges, what it means to hit the flop gets somewhat murkier. So I don't think it's super cut and dry, and while I'd usually raise, I don't think limping KTs behind one limper in this spot is particularly bad.

[Briman51]

It should be easy to adjust to this I agree, it's a technique for playing out of position that I saw esfandiari talking about on a chat show. He said that you should always make a potsized bet first into a heads up pot on the flop. This is because it will cost the in position person alot more to blff you off it. Also, it will desguise your hands when you hit.

Additionally in a multiway pots, while people are less likely to outright steal, it's important that you see what other people have done first as any hand is more vulnerable to being outdrawn or being behind. Position is especially important with a high card with a weak kicker, in a muliway pot, such as KT. For example if someone from early position bets out on a king high board you can be pretty sure that you're behind (it would take a gutsy player to bet into several people with K9 on a king high board).

Having said this I'm not into hard and fast rules, I'm sure there are situations where I'd raise with KTs in the cut off.

[Briman51]

what's metagame?

[Briman51]

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re: limping vs pfr'ing

PFR'ing gives you two more ways to win the pot.

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I agree entirely with this analysis, but there are bits missed out. Such as the size of the pot you win. When you don't hit a big hand after the flop you can only win a small pot and you'll have invested a large portion into the pot (E.G. assuming you raise to $1.20 and the blinds fold, the limper calls and you bet $2 on the flop as a continuation bet to take down the pot, then you have invested £3.20 to win only $1.55. Not great odds).

When you hit big, you won't get paid off as often as you're up against only one opponent.

[Kramer]

I like FLOP/TURN/RIVER.
Will you call a push if you raise FLOP ?
PF..I don't know..sometimes I raise ..sometimes I fold
I wouldn't like to play KTs in a 4 way pot
As I've read Aj said raising is meah..

[ajmargarine]

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re: limping vs pfr'ing

PFR'ing gives you two more ways to win the pot.

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I agree entirely with this analysis, but there are bits missed out. Such as the size of the pot you win. When you don't hit a big hand after the flop you can only win a small pot and you'll have invested a large portion into the pot (E.G. assuming you raise to $1.20 and the blinds fold, the limper calls and you bet $2 on the flop as a continuation bet to take down the pot, then you have invested £3.20 to win only $1.55. Not great odds).

When you hit big, you won't get paid off as often as you're up against only one opponent.

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There was a huge discussion on limping vs pfr'ing in ssnl awhile ago. I took the position of limping more (hoping to win a big pot and not just a cb/pfr pot), and pfr'ing less. There was great posts in that thread on both sides and I highly doubt I would be able to find it, so don't ask, it's a few years old probably.

As I had played a bajillion hands, doing both pfr'ing and limping, I was able to filter PT to see results. Others did too who both limped and PFR'd. And we found for a normal TAG player, your bb/100 was significantly higher for specific non-premium hands that you might limp or pfr (KTs 65s etc) when pfr'ing as opposed to limping. And that doesn't even talk about what happens when you are raising alot and you get a premium that flops the nuts and how people react to you differently if you are raising all the time.

[ajmargarine]

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what's metagame?

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The current flow of the game. Recent actions by you, by others, and their reactions to you and you to them.