What aspects of fate, if any, do you believe in? - Page 3

vhawk01 · #21 07-02-2007, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
bunny :

All you do is confuse the issue. Either God knows the future or he doesn't. If he knows the future, you have to do what he knows you will do, or he's wrong, which is impossible for an omniscient being.

The real problem here is people start with two definitions and assume they must be true no matter what (God as omniscient, free will as true). Since both of these are impossible (much in the way if you have an 'unstoppable cannon ball' there can be no 'unmovable wall') there is a problem... but Christians keep on talking, despite the fact that it cannot possibly be; because their ideology blinds them to logic.

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Who said God knows the future? There is no future for God. I know whats going to happen at the end of Casablanca, every single time. I'm never wrong. And yet Bogart was free to botch his line at the time.

bunny · #22 07-02-2007, 09:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
bunny :

All you do is confuse the issue.

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I'm not confusing the issue, the issue is confusing. Most theists claim that God does not have a physical or temporal existence - he exists outside of space and time (which he created).

[ QUOTE ]
Either God knows the future or he doesn't. If he knows the future, you have to do what he knows you will do, or he's wrong, which is impossible for an omniscient being.

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The language you are using here does exactly what I am referring to - assumes God exists at some particular point in time. I agree with you that if free will exists, someone cannot know the future ahead of time. That's not what I claim about God's knowledge, it just sounds like I do because our language struggles to refer to something existing outside of the universe. (If any such thing exists).

[ QUOTE ]
The real problem here is people start with two definitions and assume they must be true no matter what (God as omniscient, free will as true). Since both of these are impossible (much in the way if you have an 'unstoppable cannon ball' there can be no 'unmovable wall') there is a problem... but Christians keep on talking, despite the fact that it cannot possibly be; because their ideology blinds them to logic.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are you beginning from the assumption that both are impossible or are you trying to demonstrate it? Do you think that the fact that I now know what my wife chose for dinner last night implies she had no free will in choosing it?

GoodCallYouWin · #23 07-02-2007, 09:14 PM

'Who said God knows the future?'

Christians.

vhawk01 · #24 07-02-2007, 10:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
'Who said God knows the future?'

Christians.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nah, I don't think so. They say he knows the past, present, and the future, but thats really just shorthand. They might say it, but when pressed the knowledgeable ones will make it clear that it doesn't even make any sense to say "future" and "God" in the same sentence.

GoodCallYouWin · #25 07-02-2007, 10:04 PM

Why do you get to decide what Christians believe, instead of Christians?

bunny · #26 07-02-2007, 10:12 PM

I stated what I believed above, but you didnt respond. I think you are misunderstanding the theistic conception of God - a problem which arises from the difficulty of describing an object claimed to exist outside of time and space.

GoodCallYouWin · #27 07-02-2007, 10:20 PM

bunny :

It is impossible to respond to your mysticism with words or logic.

bunny · #28 07-02-2007, 10:32 PM

Many can manage it, but thanks for trying anyhow. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

For what it's worth, you certainly have a point if you think that God has temporal existence. It's just worth knowing that that's not one of the attributes theists ascribe to God.

vhawk01 · #29 07-02-2007, 10:43 PM

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Why do you get to decide what Christians believe, instead of Christians?

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Because we've had this thread about twenty times here, and every single Christian has made the point I made above?

You make it sound like your Omniscience objection to free will is some new thing that you just thought of that will change religion and philosophy forever. Its old and one of the worst arguments against the Christian God.

GoodCallYouWin · #30 07-02-2007, 11:53 PM

"
Because we've had this thread about twenty times here, and every single Christian has made the point I made above?
"

Go ask a priest or go to a church and ask them if they think God cannot predict what you are going to do tomorrow. Just because you make speculative claims about things that have obviously not happened (every single christian backs your point of view? lol!) does not mean I should ignore the teachings of the entire Christian religion...