is this a leak,i red often this is a call to hit big when in BB

[Scary_Tiger]

Fold preflop.

That said, c/r flop, fold to any raises, but value bet to river and get called by AJ/AQ/AK.

After c/c flop, c/c turn and river.

[KitCloudkicker]

wow this is the worst hand i've seen in a long time.

fold PF sheesh.

given that that didnt happen, why are you folding the turn? this is probably as good a flop and turn you could hope for given the PFR's range and you're folding? LOL. if you're folding this, you were cleary only playing for a straight or flush, and thats pretty retarded since you were the only person in the pot preflop.

all around, very poor play IMO

[nerdking]

I'm with ST on this one. You're definitely WB pf.

As played checkraise this flop. If villain goes to 3town with this, you can tighten his range and start looking to fold. Bet the turn. No free cards. If something scary pops up like an A, K, Q, or J c/f. If that T pairs, c/f, cuz you're counterfeited by villain's obvious face card.

Plays like this are variance-tastic and serious black-belt poker material. Only attempt this with parental supervision, kids...

[Xylocain]

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ok

btw same answer if its 9Ts???

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Yes. But if someone holds a gun to my head, I'd much rather have T9s than 32s:

1. T9s has a much better chance of making top or at least middle pair, while by definition if you pair up with 32s, it's going to be bottom pair.

2. T9s makes four straights, three of which are the nuts. 32s makes two straights, one of which is the nuts.

3. T9s makes, at worst, the fifth-nut flush. Any flush with 32s will be the worst possible flush.

4. Ten-high is, if my arithmetic is correct, more than three times better than three-high, LDO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with 1 against V. range. KT is unlikely but may be a possibility. Besides that, pairing the 23 will be the same as pairing the T9.

2 is important since T9 has a T (LDO) with makes it more likely to hit a str8 and that str8 will be more likely to improve a 2nd best hand for V.

HU 3 is a bit... I wouldn't worry about flush over flush.

Regarding 4; since the kicker plays, T9 is (10+9)/(2+3) = 6.3 times better.

I wonder why I would call with T9 and not 23 I guess I... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img].

[marchron]

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ok

btw same answer if its 9Ts???

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Yes. But if someone holds a gun to my head, I'd much rather have T9s than 32s:

1. T9s has a much better chance of making top or at least middle pair, while by definition if you pair up with 32s, it's going to be bottom pair.

2. T9s makes four straights, three of which are the nuts. 32s makes two straights, one of which is the nuts.

3. T9s makes, at worst, the fifth-nut flush. Any flush with 32s will be the worst possible flush.

4. Ten-high is, if my arithmetic is correct, more than three times better than three-high, LDO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with 1 against V. range. KT is unlikely but may be a possibility. Besides that, pairing the 23 will be the same as pairing the T9.

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KT is right out. AT is barely possible. Let's try this:

Villain raises 88. Flop is T73, or J92. I'll have T9s on this one, you can have 32s.

[ESKiMO-SiCKNE5S]

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Fold preflop.

That said, c/r flop, fold to any raises, but value bet to river and get called by AJ/AQ/AK.

After c/c flop, c/c turn and river.

[/ QUOTE ]

post here more often... its so much easier to just scroll to what you have posted and click quote.

i actually disagree tho on some rivers c/r b/f c/c line may be better

[aK13]

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ok

btw same answer if its 9Ts???

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes. But if someone holds a gun to my head, I'd much rather have T9s than 32s:

1. T9s has a much better chance of making top or at least middle pair, while by definition if you pair up with 32s, it's going to be bottom pair.

2. T9s makes four straights, three of which are the nuts. 32s makes two straights, one of which is the nuts.

3. T9s makes, at worst, the fifth-nut flush. Any flush with 32s will be the worst possible flush.

4. Ten-high is, if my arithmetic is correct, more than three times better than three-high, LDO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with 1 against V. range. KT is unlikely but may be a possibility. Besides that, pairing the 23 will be the same as pairing the T9.

[/ QUOTE ]
KT is right out. AT is barely possible. Let's try this:

Villain raises 88. Flop is T73, or J92. I'll have T9s on this one, you can have 32s.

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically machron is right about this.

Just think about how many flops you'd find favorable with each hand, and how you'd play them. Then think about how many of those are non monsters where you'd like to see him fold 2 big overcards, and how easy that would be. Then its easy to see why T9s is a play while 32s would be a fold.

[Xylocain]

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KT is right out. AT is barely possible. Let's try this:

Villain raises 88. Flop is T73, or J92. I'll have T9s on this one, you can have 32s.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that T9s is a call an 23s is a fold. But I'm not sure what the reason is and this is not it.

88 I probably the weakest hand a [solid] 12.5 pfr has UTG. That is 2 combos which is partly compensated for 99,TT (and ATs) wich 23o would not suffer as bad from. I still don't see that T9s would have any additional high card value if paired against a single UTG raiser

Your example is a little scewed, what I think you are trying to say is: Villain raises his top 7% holdings (or whatever), would you rather have 23s or T9s on a T43 flop?

I say, it doesn't matter, we can take the same line and expect an ~identical result in all cases except when V has 88 or (unlikely) 99. We may loose more when Vil has TT (unlikely), AT or KTs.

What I'm saying is that I'm not entierly sure why T9 is a stronger hand to call with, but I'm not conviced it is high card value here.

My best guess is that (sr8 value'n such aside) by choosing to call with T9s and up we are beeing closer to game theory optimum (tho I have no solids to support this). Or in other words, if we called and took the line of choice with 23s and up we would be doing it so often that our fold equity would diminish.

thoughts?

[marchron]

I DON'T call here with T9s, because you're right in that his range crushes us virtually all the time, and it's only if Villain has 99/88, or we can make a straight, that it matters at all.

But jumping from that to "T9s basically = 32s" is, well, wrong, and a sure way to lose chips. There's a slippery slope on the way down from hands that are obvious flier-takers in blind defense (which is not truly what we have here, but whatever) like JTs and T9s to 32s. But there's a big bold line at 54s, because that's the lowest suited connector we can make four straights with.

Bigger cards make better hands. I'd rather have T9o here than 32s.

[Montrealcorp]

well marchron,if it can make u feel better,
i would never call with t9o for sure there

i just tought vs tight raiser utg u can make more money with 32s then T9o for example, since i would never call down with only 1 pair to the river.
i would need 2 pair and up..
i tought 32s had more chance to hit somehting(straigth that gets lot of bet form AA,AK etc. if i hit straight)or flush wich i wouldnt loose usually vs utg unless he got AKs on the same suit as i am wich is not likely...
more over if board ends up like 22T or 33 J,high pair would of think i hit the J or T and i would call down to the river.
so the utg would jam it on flop and raise my donk bet on turn i think..getting lot of implied odds...i was probably wrong to think so but sinc ei had already a bet in there as BB ,tougth was worth a shot..