Flopped set of aces... should I have bet the flop?

[00-KGB-00]

Edited by request.

[JustCarn]

re-raising PF then checking / weak leading usually means a monster.

However, if you are so confident of your read, I don't think slow playing is totally terrible here. There is so much money in the pot compared to the stacks, you're not folding, so why not give your opponents a chance to catch up a bit / let them think JJ is good here?

[Dave I]

[ QUOTE ]
...but it has shown me that pocket Aces will either win a small pot or lose a big pot.

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Checking on this particular board or slow-playing AA in general is why you find the above to be true, which it is not. You need to bet this pot the same as you would any other hand. That means at least 2/3 pot. You either get paid off or take it down right there. Both are good. Pocket A's are > 1/4 of my total winnings and I suspect the same is true for most others.

PoBoy was harsh but correct. You will see harsh responses here from time to time.

[Garon]

Hi Adam,

Welcome to our little corner of the world!

[ QUOTE ]
1) If I flop trips and the board has no straight or flush draw potential I'll check and slow-play. If I don't get any action, I'll go all in at the turn. If the turn gives my opponent the second best hand, but he/she thinks it might be the best, they have a big decision to make. Most likely they'll fold, but if they don't the odds are in your favor.

[/ QUOTE ]

PoBoy321's reply ...

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry, but this advice sucks. This is just a great way to not build pots or get paid off on your big hands. Slowplaying is almost never correct. The best way to make money at SSNL is by charging your opponents to draw when they're drawing slim or dead.

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Adams response ...

[ QUOTE ]
The advice doesn't suck. It also might have been better if you weren't so curt with your criticism. I would never deliberately try to embarrass you like that. Look, it's just my opinion based on what I'll admit is only about 1.5 years of practical experience...but it has shown me that pocket Aces will either win a small pot or lose a big pot. He had pocket Aces in the hole and flopped a set. Second, if I have position on someone after I flop trips and the texture of the flop is favorable for a check to slow play my opponent, I'm gonna do it! Sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. If I don't get any action I'll make a bet on the Turn that puts my opponent in a bad position where he/she will most likely have to fold. If they want to chase, they'll have to pay dearly. In this case, I win a small pot but at least I don't lose a big one by getting too cute and checking again giving my opponent a free card on the River. If anyone else has an issue with this philosophy, please let me know why.

[/ QUOTE ]

(sorry folks, haven't figured out yet how to get quotes within quotes within quotes)

I'll give this a shot Adam.

I agree with PoBoy321 here but let me explain where I believe your thinking is wrong. If you want to win a big pot you have to be betting, very rarely will your opponent bet your hand for you. If you are betting at a lot of flops then betting when you make a set doesn't give your hand away at all. Not betting then pushing the turn when you get no flop action OTOH gives your hand away.

I bet at all sorts of flops. If I have TP, 2pair, set, flush draw, straight draw, c-bet after a PFR, sometimes if villain did a PFR and checks the flop I'll bet because he showed weakness, etc. And it's always the same bet, I'm not betting smaller for some hands and bigger for others. There is no way anyone can put me on a set when I flop one. Betting actually disguises your hand and you don't want villain to know what you have. In your line, when you check the flop get no action and push the turn it's very obvious what you have. Presuming a 4xBB PFR and call, you've got 8-9BB's in the pot. Who is going to call a 95+BB bet on the turn into such a small pot? That's why you are only winning small pots or losing big ones here, becuase the only people calling there are ones who can beat what they know you have.

As for OP's hand, this isn't a dry flop as there is a possible FD there.

Sets are not great hands, they are very good hands. And as such they need to be protected, even a set of aces. Remember when an Ace flops if there is no pair the next card off can always make someone a straight. That's why Doyle in his Super System book says he never slowplays a set of Aces.

In SSNL it's very rare that it is correct to slowplay because people will pay as they go, and sets is not one of those rare times. But people won't call such huge overbets/pushes on the turn with worse hands. You said it yourself, by taking your line you only win small pots or lose big ones. Anytime a line achieves that result there must be something fundamentally wrong with that line. capone0 got it right here, quads and the overfull are about the only time you want to check the flop. And even in the case of quads it's sometimes correct to bet (if you hold one in your hand and the flop is 3 of a kind).

Let's look at another possibility. Suppose you check and get action on the flop. You didn't say what your line is there but I'm thinking you're either going to RR push or call and push the turn. Either way villain only has his one flop bet invested and has to call your huge overbet, again giving away your hand. In these cases it's very easy for villain to get away from his hand (unless of course you called and pushed the turn and he made a better hand, in which case you're losing that big pot again). Now let's see what happens if you had bet the flop and villain raises you. Suddenly villain has a lot more chips invested in the pot, and will have less of a raise that he will need to call when you push. This makes it much harder for villain to get away from a worse hand than yours. On top of that you are getting more money into the pot when you are ahead which is always good. You want to be charging your opponents when you have the best hand, not giving them free cards.

In closing I'll just say that in SSNL when you have a very good hand the best line is bet, bet, and bet again.

Garon

[00-KGB-00]

Well, why in heck didn't you just say that in the first place?! Just kidding. That pretty much cleared things up for me. I'm looking at HFAP right now (specifically part 2 - Strategic Concepts) and he points out that only in very specific situations would you attempt to slow play. So now that you clearly explained the concept to me, I'm gonna try it right now in my "high stakes" $.05/$.10 NLHE cash game on party.

ps...PoBoy321 you're right. Now that I think about it, my advice sucked. OP...ignore my advice [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Thanks,

Adam

[IMALLIN767]

If your opponent is smart, he can figure out what you do and don't have by your betting.

SHE was not very smart... and with her hand range, she is going to call that bet with QQ JJ and raise with AK or AQ.
The only hands i need to worry about are A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

[capone0]

Well your stereotyping it. Let's figure most opponents are not that stupid. Let's say they assume you have AK or AQ, which you could possibly have (not really but let's just assume), they could try to outdraw your blatant underbet. If you keep underbetting when you hit big it's going to be easy to notice. You should always bet the same, this is an obvious tell which you are giving. If you hit big, you bet real small even on obvious boards where most people are scared with a whole range of hands (flush draw, ace, etc.)

[00-KGB-00]

capone0,

When saying, you should always bet the same what do you mean? Make 1/2 pot-sized bets or pot-sized bets everytime on the flop, turn, and river? HOH says to vary the size of your continuation, probe, and value bets to make it more difficult to get a read on you. I have seen a lot of members posting similar comments like, "You should always bet the same." I'd like an explanation as to what this means.

Thanks,

Adam

[Garon]

Hi Adam,

[ QUOTE ]
I have seen a lot of members posting similar comments like, "You should always bet the same." I'd like an explanation as to what this means.


[/ QUOTE ]

We mean make the same size bet in relation to the pot, I always do PSB's on the flop.

Garon

[capone0]

You miss the flop. You do a flop bet of 2/3-Pot.

You kinda hit the flop. You do a flop bet of 2/3-Pot.

You destroy the flop. You do a flop bet of 2/3-Pot.

You bluff the flop. You do a flop bet of 2/3-Pot.

If you always are betting the same thing whether you hit or miss they will never know what you have.

On the turn if you have less of a monster, I'd imagine betting 1/2 pot or 2/3rd pot at max.

On different streets with multiple turn cards, i.e. straight cards or flush cards or pairing the board, I will bet differently based on what I think the villian has, but on the flop, I think betting the same amount especially after a rereaise pf is going to be your best bet. Why signal the villian, I just reraised, an ace popped up and now I underbet, please your just shouting out, I got a monster. B/c of the PF action, checking or betting small when the ace flops is crap.

In those cases that you do have the nuts on the flop and it's played back at you cause in the past you have bluffed, you have had a continuation bet, you could potentially stack the villian, and isn't that the goal on NL anyways?