Super standard, right?

[wdead]

Ok, I see what you mean. In general this line looks just like a big draw, which is why i hate it with the big draw. But yes, using it with sets is tricky and good for that reason, but in general I am just firing bullets, so I like b/c more than checking, so he we will fold non-Ace hands

[edge]

[ QUOTE ]
If you check and he checks behind, I think you have to lead the turn to represent a missed c/r. Both your equity in the hand and your fold equity goes way down on a blank turn imo, a c/r here looks fishy and gets called down a lot.

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Well, the thing is that I don't always bet after a missed c/r in this spot with a big hand. I'm just trying to run the line that fits most with AA/JJ/AJ, and I'd often go for the c/r again on the turn. Checking the flop and betting the turn will very rarely be a marginal hand like KK/QQ, so if I check the flop and miss my c/r, I don't want to bet out on the turn and show off that I have a real hand. Although in this case I don't. You know what I mean. With a vulnerable hand that I'm not sure of, I (representing the average player) am more likely to check/call the turn after checking the flop; obv Villain doesn't know I was going for a c/r on the flop and he may think I was going for a c/c pot control with KK/QQ.

[tagtastic]

You're thinking too hard here imo.

Opponent is just thinking "wtf is going on with two checks and a push?? I don't understand, I can't put you on a real hand, call".

Balance & being unexploitable are overrated, and this gets far more true the lower you go in stakes [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] Metagame is great, but it doesn't matter much when your best opponents are all playing 10 tables and looking to fleece fish more than get involved with you.

[edge]

If I take this hand in a vacuum and throw balance out the window and really simplify everything, don't I want to be putting in all my money with a chance to knock the other guy out, given that my equity is 50% at best? If I c-bet and he shoves over top, yeah, I'm calling for sure because of pot odds, but it's better for me to win a smaller pot outright.

Maybe check/shoving the flop looks exactly like a draw, but bet/calling looks like anything and I'm never way ahead. If I'm going to be racing my money I'd rather give him a chance to fold. If he has KK/QQ/88/whatever (some hand that isn't great), I'd be much better off checkraising the flop rather than bet/calling. Again, this is oversimplifying it and assuming that he'll shove over the top of a bet and call a c/r with the same range. If he has a good hand that he won't fold, it doesn't make a difference what I do.

The point of bet/calling is to keep the balance with your later and previous c-bets in similar situations, assuming that this is your regular line (for most people it is) and if we're disregarding balance, I think checkraising is better.

I'm kind of playing devil's advocate here and I'm not steadfastly convinced that my line is best, but does this seem reasonable?

[luckychewy]

i think bet flop shove turn maximizes fe a lot more than c/r ai on flop because he'll peel a lot of hands that will fold to a 2 barrel with and that he will check for pot control with. so, i disagree that w/o taking balance/metagame/whatever into account that c/r>b/c.

[mike0292]

[ QUOTE ]
i think bet flop shove turn maximizes fe a lot more than c/r ai on flop because he'll peel a lot of hands that will fold to a 2 barrel with and that he will check for pot control with. so, i disagree that w/o taking balance/metagame/whatever into account that c/r>b/c.

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QFT

best play by far in this spot is bet enough on flop so you have ~PSB on the turn. Fold out AQ probably and any PPs that peel the flop.

[aejones]

bet flop, call shove, it's not close. if he flats, shove all turns.

[tagtastic]

Good point, I think the fold equity of double barreling here pushes this more towards a flop b/c than c/r.

Other than that, it's v close and opponent dependent. There are a ton of opponents who won't ever bet fold this flop when you check imo. But against the ones that can and often will, a c/r is fine.

[cts]

[ QUOTE ]
bet flop, call shove, it's not close. if he flats, shove all turns.

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this is basically my thoughts. your draw is so strong and they fold a lot of their range on A high boards

[limon]

[ QUOTE ]
5-handed 2/4, stacks $400. Folded to button who seems to be a reasonable TAG; if he's paying attention I'm probably viewed as the same. He makes it 16, I pop it to 50 in the BB with KQ spades, he calls.

Flop As Js 4x, 102 in the pot.

Check, check.

Turn 4x, 102 in the pot.

Check, he bets 75, I shove.

[/ QUOTE ]

gotta bet the flop, youll never get a cr here unless he has top 2 or better. he puts you on a monster. think about what you put him on and what he puts you on...play accordingly