Can I get away from this...2/4 PL deep

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]
But, what will happen if you don't go hunting thru the internet tubes?

[/ QUOTE ]

[image][/image]

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]
Troll,

This isn't a permutation question. Sure there can only be X combinations of Y kind of hands, but that is the problem of probability, with no player intervention. When the money starts moving, so does the answer. It is not just about how often the nuts is out, but what other hands he might be stacking with..

[/ QUOTE ]

While I was re-reading what you wrote (I still haven't quite got it all!), I got involved in this hand. Once the money starts moving (check, check-minimum raise line), I know the answer is he must have the nuts, right?

POKERSTARS GAME #10207322729:
OMAHA POT LIMIT ($3/$6)
2007/05/31 - 22:14:38 (ET)

Table 'Ludovica' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Schnägg ($379.50 in chips)
Seat 2: IRNMDN222 ($560.20 in chips)
Seat 5: Trolleur ($566.40 in chips)
Seat 6: aviardi ($1428.70 in chips)
Schnägg: posts small blind $3
IRNMDN222: posts big blind $6

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Trolleur [Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]
Trolleur: raises $12 to $18
aviardi: folds
Schnägg: folds
IRNMDN222: calls $12

*** FLOP *** [J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]
IRNMDN222: checks
Trolleur: bets $37.05
IRNMDN222: calls $37.05

*** TURN *** [3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]]
IRNMDN222: checks
Trolleur: bets $111.10
IRNMDN222: raises $111.10 to $222.20
Trolleur: raises $289.15 to $511.35 and is all-in
IRNMDN222: calls $282.95 and is all-in

*** RIVER *** 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
IRNMDN222: shows [A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] (a full house, Jacks full of Threes)

Trolleur collected $1121.40 from pot with a full house, Queens full of Jacks

[Bavid Denyamine]

^ Great example of the Fundamental Theorem of Omaha.

[Big Dave D]

Troll.

gl

dd

[jomatty]

i think this is a lot closer than most people seem to. i think it is a tough spot and am not sure what my opinion on it is. i think that despite the fact that we have so many of the cards that our opponent would need we are going to see a higher set here fairly often. two pair is possible but i think if we dont see a set we are most likely up against a wrap. i think im leaning towards a fold but it is very close.

troll,
if you dont see the difference between 55 on a QT5 flop and QQ on a Q55 flop then i dont know what to say. are you joking, or just trying to break balls?

[jomatty]

what if our hand is 5544? would that be a fold? without a strong read i lay that down most of the time with little thought in this situation.

just curious as to what you guys think, since i seem to disagree with the majority on what this guys range is.

[Troll_Inc]

[ QUOTE ]
what if our hand is 5544? would that be a fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm only commenting on ONE of Big Dave's comments, namely his statements/allusions/illusion about the nuts.

If you had just 5544 and no Queen on the QT5 board, then the scenario is not comparable (because there are 3 Q's out) to having QQxx on a Q55 board and worrying about the opponent having quads.

[Big Dave D]

Jomatty,

If you perform the calculation that I suggested to Troll, and Troll doesnt want/care/understand to do, then you will see that the issue is that when you are ahead, its not by much, and when you are behind, you are crushed. This works our at being a poorish EV situation. Having middle set in this situation is *much* better.

It's also worth pointing out that contrary to Trolls view on me as expressed in previous threads, I was speaking more (vaguely) broadly because I thought it was more helpful. Most of the guys who posted here said "Ya, we are ahead of his range here, so we push". But that isn't the point. When you are ahead, its not by much, and when you're behind its a nightmare. You almost never have the compensating factor, like the QQ on Q55 case, of completely crushing your foe. And the bigger the stack you have at risk to jam, the more likely, if it all gets in, that you are at the worse end of his potential range of hands.

gl

bdd

[blainestar]

wtf is DIYDDIYD

[ipp147]

[ QUOTE ]
wtf is DIYDDIYD

[/ QUOTE ]

damned if you do, damned if you don't....I think.

fwiw I think Big Dave D's thoughts are pretty much spot on here but alot will depend on their history blind vs blind.

I also don't mind flat calling the flop in this hand with bottom set.