How smart is Tim Duncan?

[Bill Murphy]

Just read an interesting thing in SI. They say Duncan has an excellent blocks/personal fouls ratio, which is supposedly the equivalent of assists/turnovers for big men.

I have no idea what the all-time list in this ratio looks like (blink thought is that Olajuwon is #1, and perhaps by a ways), but I guess somebody could spend a few hours researching it...

EDIT: Well, s'cuse me.

Olajuwon 3830/4383 = .87383
Duncan 1840/2036 = .90373

EDIT #2: Then again, maybe this stat needs some fine-tuning...

Eaton 3064/2955 = 1.036887

[Assani Fisher]

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he's got a pretty long wingspan and he's a very good passer out of the post... offensively he's not that dominant... roughly averaging in the low 20s in his career... definate star quality but hardly the dominant 30+ppg we've seen from the likes of shaq or 25+ppg from hakeem, robinson et al....

what makes him so good... is his work on the boards as well as his defensive presence... where he lacks in jumping ability he makmes up for it with positioning and keeping his long arms up so he can quickly swipe at the ball...

still though i don't think he quite measures to the old centers back in the 90s... though i haven't really looked at it closely... i still think hakeem was loads better and the admiral was also a hair better in his prime...

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its weird...I absolutely hate the Spurs and I root against them at every chance I get...yet I constantly find myself defending Tim Duncan. I think he was easily better than both of those players. Its all about winning...and he does it.

BTW, I actually think Hakeem is a bit overrated. If Jordan never retired, Hakeem would never have a title and would probably be quite a few spots lower on most peoples' all time lists.

[Assani Fisher]

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still though i don't think he quite measures to the old centers back in the 90s... though i haven't really looked at it closely... i still think hakeem was loads better and the admiral was also a hair better in his prime...

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This is why Duncan claims to be a 4, so he can say he's the best PF of all time (which I don't even agree with) because he wouldn't even crack the top 10 of all time centers.

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I'm pretty sure that the Spurs' coaches are the ones who decide to play Duncan at the PF spot and someone else at the C spot. I really doubt that Popovich thinks to himself "hmmmm...it would be better for our team for me to play Duncan at Center, but I want him to go down as the greatest PF of all time so I'm going go plug Nasterovich/Oberto/Robinson/Elson in there instead and put Duncan at PF."

Duncan doesn't "claim" to be a PF; He plays PF and has played PF for 90+% of his games in the NBA.

[kidcolin]

Assani,

While I agree with your general consensus on Duncan and how he's the best ever, he doesn't play power forward. At all. H plays EXACTLY like a center.

[Assani Fisher]

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He also didn't have Jordan, Malone, and Hakeem to compete with.

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No, but he had Kobe, Shaq, Wade, Lebron, Nash, Garnett, Kidd, Dirk, AI, and TMac to compete with. I don't really see either era as any more difficult than another.

[Assani Fisher]

In general I think its pretty silly for us to try to evaluate players that we've never seen, and I doubt that most of us saw Russell and Wilt, and I really doubt that most of us saw Mikan. With that said, the only player I've ever seen(regardless of position) that I'd put above Duncan is MJ. Shaq is close and if he didn't fade so early in his career, I'd put him over Duncan. We've already been through the Bird/Magic argument, so I'll lay off that here. But needless to say, I'd rank him very high on my "centers list" if we put him at center.

[Assani Fisher]

[ QUOTE ]
Just read an interesting thing in SI. They say Duncan has an excellent blocks/personal fouls ratio, which is supposedly the equivalent of assists/turnovers for big men.

I have no idea what the all-time list in this ratio looks like (blink thought is that Olajuwon is #1, and perhaps by a ways), but I guess somebody could spend a few hours researching it...

EDIT: Well, s'cuse me.

Olajuwon 3830/4383 = .87383
Duncan 1840/2036 = .90373

EDIT #2: Then again, maybe this stat needs some fine-tuning...

Eaton 3064/2955 = 1.036887

[/ QUOTE ]

Eaton was actually a very very good defender, so I don't necessarily think that him being #1 means that the stat is meaningless.

[Assani Fisher]

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Assani,

While I agree with your general consensus on Duncan and how he's the best ever, he doesn't play power forward. At all. H plays EXACTLY like a center.

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See I don't really understand what this means. For example, Tony Parker rarely shoots 3s and shoots a ton of his shots in the lane....does that mean he is not a PG? Or take Lebron...he passes the ball ton more than the usual SF and he will often be the "playmaker"...does that mean hes not a SF?

Ultimately I think we simply have to go by what position the team plays him at. And Tim Duncan usually starts alongside a player who is clearly a center. I dunno...maybe you think that the Spurs have always been using a 2-center offense. But even still, that would mean that Duncan is always guarding the other team's PF. Imo, that makes him a PF.

[Shadowrun]

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Assani,

While I agree with your general consensus on Duncan and how he's the best ever, he doesn't play power forward. At all. H plays EXACTLY like a center.

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I disagree i think he is a PF and i think everyone generally agrees he is a PF (from the people i asked on aim to ESPN broadcast toady where he was called one of the best PF ever)

[kidcolin]

Assani,

Not really a great post. Tony Parker plays exactly like a PG (shooting 3s isn't a PGs job, though some are good at it.. he penetrates and distributes), Lebron plays exactly like a SF (there have been play making SFs before and his main function is attacking the rim).

Tim Duncan came into the league alongside Robinson, so he got penciled in as a 4. Fine. But I don't see how you say he plays alongside guys who are clearly a center. Umberto? Seriously? Or how about when Horry is the second biggest Spur out there? He takes the jump, he plays the block, he's almost always the tallest Spur out there, he patrols the lane... I mean, what else does the guy need to do to be considered a center? As for he always defends the other teams PF, wrong. This series, he does, but that's because Okur isn't really a center either. He camps out in 3 point land. Defending him would be a waste of Tim's talent, and time, seeing as how Okur sucks (yet Okur, the opposing center, defends Timmah). So he mans up on Boozer, Utah's only low post threat. In general, he defends the opposing center. When he and KG battle, he normally doesn't defend KG. He'll probably defend 'Sheed in the finals, who is a 4, but also the Pistons' main low post thread. That's generally who Duncan will defend, given that post defense is one of his better skills.

Even in today's pregame, they were comparing him to other great centers (Moses, Kareem, etc). They called him a PF, but then Dan Patrick chimed in, "well, he's listed as a PF, but he does a lot of center work, so let's just put him under the umbrella of 'big man'."