Possible Pooh-bah? - The Basics of Thinking in Terms of Ranges - Page 3

PBJaxx · #21 05-16-2007, 11:40 PM

The size of the river bet doesn't really matter here. In the example, we figured out his calling range for a $75 bet. Of course, in reality, different bet sizes would result in different calling ranges.

wildzer0 · #22 05-16-2007, 11:56 PM

I hope this is appropriate in this thread, but I think this is a pretty basic range question. Here's an area I have a lot of trouble with when thinking in terms of ranges. Well, i have a lot of trouble with it in general, but this is one specific area [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

UTG is 28/14/2.5. He's not very good. My notes say that he limp/minraises w/ big pocket pairs, will raise smaller pairs. With a PFR of 14%, and given those reads, I would tend to put him on a range after raising utg of around 22-JJ, AT+, KQ. So, he ended up having an Ax hand here, which I wouldn't have included in my postflop range calcs.

Basically my question is, how do I incorporate these random hand possibilities in my hand ranges? I see people include things like "10% random cards" in the hand range estimations, how do you arrive at that number, and how do you actually use that number when using your range in decision making?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($23.25)
UTG ($58.50)
Hero ($98)
SB ($43.45)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $4, 2 folds, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $3, UTG raises to $6, BB calls $3.

Turn: ($20.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $15, BB calls $13.25 (All-In).

River: ($48.75) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $48.75

Results in white below: 
BB has Kc 7h (straight, ace high).
UTG has Ad 4c (one pair, aces).
Outcome: BB wins $47. UTG wins $1.75.

Fat Nicky · #23 05-17-2007, 12:17 AM

wildzer0, the villain in this hand is raising UTG is a 4-handed hand, so he is effectively in the CO, so he would probably have a wider range here than you originally suspected.

wildzer0 · #24 05-17-2007, 12:28 AM

Ah, just pulled a quick example and didn't read it thoroughly enough [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] But I'm still curious as to how you weight in "random" hands, or is it just something you essentially ignore until you have a read otherwise?

onoble · #25 05-17-2007, 10:26 AM

Not meant to hijack but if I may... just for fun, alter the hand a bit and put us in a slightly tougher position:

1/2NL (6max) - $200 eff stacks
Villain is 35/8/0.9 - Loose-passive calling station

Pre-flop:
Villain open-limps from MP. It folds to hero on the button with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] who raises to $10, folds to villain who calls $8.

Flop ($23): 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Villain checks, hero bets $17, villain calls

Turn ($57): 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]


Villain bets $35...

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a spot I find myself in too frequently.

How is the range effected?

Paul Thomson · #26 05-17-2007, 10:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I hope this is appropriate in this thread, but I think this is a pretty basic range question. Here's an area I have a lot of trouble with when thinking in terms of ranges. Well, i have a lot of trouble with it in general, but this is one specific area [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

UTG is 28/14/2.5. He's not very good. My notes say that he limp/minraises w/ big pocket pairs, will raise smaller pairs. With a PFR of 14%, and given those reads, I would tend to put him on a range after raising utg of around 22-JJ, AT+, KQ. So, he ended up having an Ax hand here, which I wouldn't have included in my postflop range calcs.

Basically my question is, how do I incorporate these random hand possibilities in my hand ranges? I see people include things like "10% random cards" in the hand range estimations, how do you arrive at that number, and how do you actually use that number when using your range in decision making?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (4 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

BB ($23.25)
UTG ($58.50)
Hero ($98)
SB ($43.45)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $4, 2 folds, BB calls $3.

Flop: ($8.50) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $3, UTG raises to $6, BB calls $3.

Turn: ($20.50) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $15, BB calls $13.25 (All-In).

River: ($48.75) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $48.75

Results in white below: 
BB has Kc 7h (straight, ace high).
UTG has Ad 4c (one pair, aces).
Outcome: BB wins $47. UTG wins $1.75. 

[/ QUOTE ]

The way you incorporate random hands is by WEIGHTING them. So in other words, insead of including all of the AXs hands, you include half of them. Similarly if the villains sometimes limps with lower pocket pairs and sometimes raises, than just include half or whatever % of those hands you want.

Mike MacIntosh · #27 05-17-2007, 10:59 AM

nh

CobraGoat · #28 05-17-2007, 11:19 AM

Bravo! TY.

FWIW, im working on trying to broaden my range assignment to PF. currently I find myself getting to the turn and then working the hand backwards to really isolate the range. However, while this works well against many opps, there are many situations where my analysis is simply applied too late.

I cannot agree more with your suggestion to assign these ranges while we are at the table during all aspects of the hand (and it goes without saying, to do this when we are not in the hand!).

One caveat... when we encounter a thinking opponent who is at least a second level thinker do we need to move from thinking of his range with respect to our hand to his range with respect to the range he puts us on (as opposed to the specific hand he puts us on)?

Goot post.

Would someone be a gem and post this in the uNL forum?

sebbb · #29 05-17-2007, 11:20 AM

good post.

How did you personally arrive at the point where you could put consciously your opponent on a range on every hand? Is it just practice, maybe playing fewer tables some of the time and watching every hand as well?

Is the next step being able to do it subconsciously?

Also concerning your example:

Here is what would be my thought process:

Preflop: do you really list all those hands in your head? I'd be more likely to think: "ok, he called my raise so he probably doesn't have a crappy hand"

Flop: my thought: " ok so he calls, maybe he is slowplaying a great hand such as a 6 or two 7's, maybe he has two pairs (but most likely I'm ahead), maybe he has a flush draw (with possible overcards) or a straight draw"

I don't really think I have time to list hands, but I think more about the type of hand he might have. Is that what I should do?

PBJaxx · #30 05-17-2007, 11:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
One caveat... when we encounter a thinking opponent who is at least a second level thinker do we need to move from thinking of his range with respect to our hand to his range with respect to the range he puts us on (as opposed to the specific hand he puts us on)?

[/ QUOTE ]

There are several things to this. Really the first step when facing a second level thinker is to adjust the information you use in order to acquire his range. This is the basics of third-level thinking. We use what we think he thinks our range is (our perceived range) in order to help identify his range. The simple way of saying this is: "Since my image to villain is xxx, then he probably puts me on range xxx-xxx."

Now to take this another step further, which involves adjusting your range so that it fairs well against his range while remaining deceptive, see this article by Jman. This is a great article.

http://www.bluffmagazine.com/onlinefeature/gbucks.asp