NL10 Preflop Question

[Jeff76]

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Was I supposed to fold the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]I would have. You got the information you wanted- someone likes this hand and yours kind of sucks.

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the CO bet could mean anything or nothing at all.

[/ QUOTE ]Bets never mean nothing- he has some reason to bet here (though his reason may be that he thinks he can buy the pot). However, there's enough of a chance that he actually connected with the flop to let your hand go. With so many players in the pot, it makes sense someone would have connected.

[CaptVimes]

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I agree, this comes into playing players and almost anything worth playing is worth raising against a weak-tight limper.

However, a better hand is still better in this situation.

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This is what I think I'm trying to figure out. Its more the power of position than the cards your holding and you have to aware of your opponents tendencies. In other words, people I know will fold out to the preflop raise and also will fold when they miss the flop. I agree a better hand is better, it always is. I'm not talking about doing this a lot as it, for me, is situation specific. The chances of getting the right situation at NL10 just aren't that high. To many loose-passives. Just trying something to be a little more aggro from LP.

Oh, and the example posted above, fold the flop, at least check behind the river. Calling middle pair in a limped pot isn't profitable.

[JoseRijo]

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Oh, and the example posted above, fold the flop, at least check behind the river. Calling middle pair in a limped pot isn't profitable.

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In the example above, fold PRE-flop. That was my whole point (and the point of this thread).

[Jeff76]

Here is a reason I like A8 better than 72 from the button. The flop comes out J63 and all the limpers check. With A8 at a weak table I am betting this about 80% of the time. Usually I take it without a fight (and if I bet half the pot this only has to work 1 in 3 times to break even), but if I do get called then I have a redraw with my ace and am hardly ever dominated if I get there (because most aces aren't calling on this flop). So even when I'm called I have a 12% chance of making a better hand- heck my pairing my 8 might even be good too. Passive players will often let me see both cards, and every once in a while a hand like 45s gets shown down and MHIG.

Another things that happens with Ax kinds of hands in this position is that I'll flop the ace and everyone will check around. I'll check behind and see what happens on the turn. Sometimes the table explodes and I can easily dump my dominated hand, but other times I'll get a single player who will bet into me with a smaller pair because he thinks I can't possibly have the ace. Or sometimes I'll bet the ace on the flop and get called because it looks like a position play.

The point is, there are all kinds of good things that can happen against WEAK players and A8 DOES player better than 72 if you are careful and take advantage of your position.

[threads13]

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Oh, and the example posted above, fold the flop, at least check behind the river. Calling middle pair in a limped pot isn't profitable.

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In the example above, fold PRE-flop. That was my whole point (and the point of this thread).

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Without reads I would fold perflop. If they are loose passive and you don't expect a raise from the blinds, then you can limp in. However, you need to be able to get away from the hand when you flop a hand like you did here in a multiway pot. I think the options on that flop are fold>raise>call.

[Jay.Yang]

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Here is a reason I like A8 better than 72 from the button. The flop comes out J63 and all the limpers check. With A8 at a weak table I am betting this about 80% of the time. Usually I take it without a fight (and if I bet half the pot this only has to work 1 in 3 times to break even), but if I do get called then I have a redraw with my ace and am hardly ever dominated if I get there (because most aces aren't calling on this flop). So even when I'm called I have a 12% chance of making a better hand- heck my pairing my 8 might even be good too. Passive players will often let me see both cards, and every once in a while a hand like 45s gets shown down and MHIG.

Another things that happens with Ax kinds of hands in this position is that I'll flop the ace and everyone will check around. I'll check behind and see what happens on the turn. Sometimes the table explodes and I can easily dump my dominated hand, but other times I'll get a single player who will bet into me with a smaller pair because he thinks I can't possibly have the ace. Or sometimes I'll bet the ace on the flop and get called because it looks like a position play.

The point is, there are all kinds of good things that can happen against WEAK players and A8 DOES player better than 72 if you are careful and take advantage of your position.

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Thanks for your explanation. I agree with you mostly. However, I just want to say that it's really hard to play long term +EV with hands like A8o on BTN. Profit will be small anyways. On the other hand, it is really easy to lose big money with it. If you are still at micro and having trouble beating the game, I think it's better to let the hand go PF.

[Jeff76]

FWIW, I just looked in PT for unsuited aces (A9 and lower) on the button in unraised pots- I have had 180 of them for a total profit of .51 BB/hand. That's $90 I wouldn't have if I'd folded them all [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

(I realize 180 means nothing- I'm just making conversation now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] )

Of course, most of that just came fro this hand:

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.25/$0.50
9 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $63.05
UTG+1: $61.10
MP1: $50.10
MP2: $28.50
MP3: $54.65
CO: $52.05
Hero: $46.65
SB: $26.20
BB: $22.25

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
3 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($3, 6 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">BB bets $0.5</font>, 2 folds, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises to $3</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises to $9</font>, SB folds, <font color="#cc0000">BB raises to $15</font>, CO calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises all-in $46.15</font>, <font color="#cc0000">BB calls all-in $6.75</font>, CO calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ($117.05, 1 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $68.25, Sidepot 1: $48.8)


River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($117.05, 1 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $68.25, Sidepot 1: $48.8)


Results:
Final pot: $117.05
CO showed 4d 6d
BB mucks Jh Ac

Edit: So filter out A7o, my profits are a more modest .12 BB/hand- still $17 more than folding. I'll let you know when I have real significant number, though.

[Jay.Yang]

That's a great profit of 0.5 PTBB/100. I did a search of my PT database that has 45k hands or so, and I actually found ZERO hands under the condition that you mentioned.

Maybe I'm losing too much value by folding these hands on BTN. But do let me know how do with these hands when you have bigger sample size. It's intersting~

[coordi]

100k hands all my unsuited aces are losers except A9 and A10 wich are big winners. I rarely play ace rag from any position so most those losses are probly blinds.

[Jeff76]

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That's a great profit of 0.5 PTBB/100.

[/ QUOTE ]My true win rate with unsuited Ace babies from the button is probably closer to the .12 PTBB/100. That A7o skews the numbers hugely- it is my only big pot limping on the button with an ace baby and I could have easily lost it, either by the BB having set or by getting outdrawn. To be honest, looking back at it (I don't even remember that hand) I'm surprised I won it given the flop action.