Hitler And God

[SNOWBALL]

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I don't get why god has anything to do with morality anyway. If god exists then that doesn't change the unmeasurability of morality. It just gives it an arbitrary standard, viz., what god commands is good, and what he forbids is bad, therefore bad and good are just shorthand for god's will.

Either way, there's no objective measure for immorality in the same way that there is an objective measure for the area of a triangle, or the temperature of my oven.

You may counter: "god is the objective measure," but that's just an irreducible axiom. I choose to reject it, and you choose to follow it, but you can't prove your axiom is better than anyone else's. You can't prove that the true measure of right and wrong shouldn't actually be founded around a man named Bill instead.

MORALITY DOESN'T EXIST.


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Society flourishing adhering to God's morality as opposed to its languishing in the the absence of his morality would be some proof of what is right and what is wrong, no?


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That's actually an argument for the secular nature of moralistic codes. Societies that are composed of individuals who can coooperate are more successful than societies that are composed of individuals that destroy one another. Natural selection FTW.

[David Sklansky]

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You are too corrupt to judge "God's" justice David. Do you know why you can't understand that? It's because you are too corrupt. There is no logical problem here.

PairTheBoard

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So If I wasn't corrupt I could judge his justice? Anyway at least I'm not filth.

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Well, NotReady is the expert on all things filthy. But I think if you weren't corrupt you wouldn't have any problem seeing how just God's justice is. At least I doubt you'd doubt it.

PairTheBoard

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You are the most confusing poster here. I have often said that I believe that if there is a God he would be just. Which is why those religions that postulate that God behaves unjustly, by our common sense standards, must be wrong. You appear to be saying the same thing as Not Ready. That what we perceive to be unjust isn't really. But even though I can't understand most of the stuff you and Not Ready argue about I certainly get the fact that you two aren't on the same page.

[benjdm]

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Not Ready is fond of invoking Hitler when discussing the subject of right and wrong in a godless world. How can someone say that Hitler was inherently "wrong" to kill six million Jews if there is no God to say he was? He probably had what he thought were good reasons. He probably wasn't just a sicko sadist.

And although I haven't seriously analyzed that statement, I think it is technically correct. Regardless of what the hi falootin philosophers say.

But wait. Inherent in this statement is the common sense (but not strictly logical) implication that God WOULD have considered Hitler wrong. But why?

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You haven't fully absorbed the theistic basis for right and wrong. God may or may not have considered Hitler wrong but no 'why' can apply. It is an arbitrary standard. (If it wasn't arbitrary but could be worked out from 'why' then it wouldn't matter if there was a God to declare the answers or if there wasn't.) Theistic morality is right and wrong because God said so, with no 'why' possible, even in principle.

[PLOlover]

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God WOULD have considered Hitler wrong. But why?

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Thou shalt not kill would seem to cover it.

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I mean these people will soon burn in hell for eternity anyway.

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assuming facts not in evidence here. and I don't mean whether hell exists or not, i mean even assuming it exists, you have no way of knowing who will go to hell or not.

[PairTheBoard]

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You are too corrupt to judge "God's" justice David. Do you know why you can't understand that? It's because you are too corrupt. There is no logical problem here.

PairTheBoard

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So If I wasn't corrupt I could judge his justice? Anyway at least I'm not filth.

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Well, NotReady is the expert on all things filthy. But I think if you weren't corrupt you wouldn't have any problem seeing how just God's justice is. At least I doubt you'd doubt it.

PairTheBoard

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You are the most confusing poster here. I have often said that I believe that if there is a God he would be just. Which is why those religions that postulate that God behaves unjustly, by our common sense standards, must be wrong. You appear to be saying the same thing as Not Ready. That what we perceive to be unjust isn't really. But even though I can't understand most of the stuff you and Not Ready argue about I certainly get the fact that you two aren't on the same page.

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I was trying to describe to you what I think NotReady's position is on this, and why it is unassailable by your logic. In my view, the whole concept of "justice" should be deemphasized. The paradigm that revolves around "justice" needs to be transcended and replaced by one that revolves around Love.



PairTheBoard

[West]

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I don't get why god has anything to do with morality anyway. If god exists then that doesn't change the unmeasurability of morality. It just gives it an arbitrary standard, viz., what god commands is good, and what he forbids is bad, therefore bad and good are just shorthand for god's will.

Either way, there's no objective measure for immorality in the same way that there is an objective measure for the area of a triangle, or the temperature of my oven.

You may counter: "god is the objective measure," but that's just an irreducible axiom. I choose to reject it, and you choose to follow it, but you can't prove your axiom is better than anyone else's. You can't prove that the true measure of right and wrong shouldn't actually be founded around a man named Bill instead.

MORALITY DOESN'T EXIST.

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Keep in mind that just because morality is more complicated than finding the area of a triangle or measuring the temerature in your oven, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

[samsonite2100]

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You are the most confusing poster here. I have often said that I believe that if there is a God he would be just. Which is why those religions that postulate that God behaves unjustly, by our common sense standards, must be wrong. You appear to be saying the same thing as Not Ready. That what we perceive to be unjust isn't really. But even though I can't understand most of the stuff you and Not Ready argue about I certainly get the fact that you two aren't on the same page.

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Why on Earth do you believe if there's a God he would be just? Doesn't all available evidence point in the other direction? IMO, if there's a God he's clearly a sociopath at best, albeit a sociopath with good aesthetic sense.

[Philo]

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Not Ready is fond of invoking Hitler when discussing the subject of right and wrong in a godless world. How can someone say that Hitler was inherently "wrong" to kill six million Jews if there is no God to say he was? He probably had what he thought were good reasons. He probably wasn't just a sicko sadist.

And although I haven't seriously analyzed that statement, I think it is technically correct. Regardless of what the hi falootin philosophers say.



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You haven't seriously thought about the claim that we can't say that Hitler was wrong to kill six million Jews, but nevertheless you think it is correct despite what philosophers might say? Wow.

What in the world would be your grounds for thinking that Hitler wasn't 'inherently' wrong (not sure what it means to be 'inherently' wrong) in that case?

[Zeno]

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So I think he ought to find a better example than one that even a six year old could find fault with.


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I pick Hitler to save time.

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That's the easy way out; in addition, everyone knows that time = money and it is detrimental Public Relations for Christians to have Mammon occupy so prominently in their posts. Of course you can make a plea that you are just being efficient with your time without regard to any monetary considerations. If that is the case, next time pick Genghis Khan instead of Hitler, for the sake of variety.

-Zeno

[andyfox]

The Jews Hitler killed did not accept Jesus as the son of God, thus they are destined for hell.