this ATs me molesta

[Fantam]

[ QUOTE ]
The book doesn't say how many opponents there are, but if it is just a two or three player pot the hand is barely worth a call let alone a raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its ok as a semi-bluff. The book was written with medium to high stakes limits in mind, which my understanding is presumed fewer players on average seeing a flop than in lower limits.

[ QUOTE ]
p95- "Even if you are not sure that you have the best hand, a raise is often correct. Keep in mind that if you do hold the best hand, or if your hand becomes the best hand, your raise may have stopped other opponents from drawing out on you".

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, thats fine. However, I am not sure that this is one of those times that a flop raise is correct.

[ QUOTE ]
It is perfectly possible that someone will have a K here, but you still have a chance of overtaking it. Why worry about one extra SB if it increases your overall winning chances though?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I dont think that it increases your overall winning chances sufficiently to be +EV, espescially as you may be 3-bet.

(Someone may be better than me at doing the maths to calculate the EV of calling/raising on the flop.)

Whereas once the EP player has bet into you, this hand seems to play nicely as one where you have the pot odds to draw.

[marchron]

[ QUOTE ]
But is anyone with Kx going to fold ? So, your raise may only end up protecting someone elses best hand, and leave you facing a 3-bet.

If you dont have the best hand, you do have a number of draws, which would seem to make seeing the next card worthwhile if possible.

So, I would prefer to just call. Could Aaron W, or anyone else who would prefer to raise please explain their reasoning ?

[/ QUOTE ]
At a live table, the chance of a 3-bet behind you is slim to none. Live players are superdy-duper passive. Nobody's three-jacking this without at least KT.

Meanwhile, we have middle pair, which comes with five outs standard but we have the nut backdoor flush draw and the nut backdoor straight draw (a little dirty because it will be a chop with any other Ax). Getting 13-1, we have plenty to call, so we should raise to shut out some draws. AQ, Q9, AJ, and J9 all have gutshots; we'd like them to go away. Any 4x has the same five outs we do unless they have A4; they need to get out. And while it's not probable that someone will fold something like K3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], if it happens that's huge for us.

[Fantam]

[ QUOTE ]
At a live table, the chance of a 3-bet behind you is slim to none. Live players are superdy-duper passive. Nobody's three-jacking this without at least KT.

Meanwhile, we have middle pair, which comes with five outs standard but we have the nut backdoor flush draw and the nut backdoor straight draw (a little dirty because it will be a chop with any other Ax). Getting 13-1, we have plenty to call, so we should raise to shut out some draws. AQ, Q9, AJ, and J9 all have gutshots; we'd like them to go away. Any 4x has the same five outs we do unless they have A4; they need to get out. And while it's not probable that someone will fold something like K3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], if it happens that's huge for us.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its interesting to learn that being 3-bet is far less common live than on-line.

The 4x and gut-shot hands only seem to be a problem though, if our hand is best on the flop. We dont really mind them staying in if we are drawing do we ?

I suppose what I am asking is whether it is +EV for us to try to clean up our outs with what I suspect is probably something like the 2nd best hand on this flop.

Or am I overestimating the chance that our hand is not best ?

By the way, is this hand meant to be another play along ?

[MacGuyV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
raise or fold

[/ QUOTE ]

is still the most misused phrase in the micros

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[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[Douglas Leslie]

Its interesting to learn that being 3-bet is far less common live than on-line.

The 4x and gut-shot hands only seem to be a problem though, if our hand is best on the flop. We dont really mind them staying in if we are drawing do we ?

I suppose what I am asking is whether it is +EV for us to try to clean up our outs with what I suspect is probably something like the 2nd best hand on this flop.

Or am I overestimating the chance that our hand is not best ?

By the way, is this hand meant to be another play along ?

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't know that you are behind. When you decide to play this hand you have two ways of winning it- either you are going to outdraw a K or you are ahead and your hand is going to hold up. The problem with limping is that you could hit your draw to two pair or a set and still lose if one of your opponents hits a gutshot. Also, say you limp and one of the callers behind you hits the gutshot. You call the turn and get raised behind by the player with the straight. Now it is going to be expensive for you if you decide to try to call down to a showdown before losing. You can avoid a lot of grief by raising the flop. If you get three bet at least you have a fair idea where you stand and can perhaps fold the turn if your hand does not improve. You have then spent 3 SB to find out that you are behind instead of 5.

[terencetsao]

without the BDFD % BDSD i raise
with the BDFD % BDSD i will just call, like how i play with regular OPSD, and FD.

[Fantam]

[ QUOTE ]

You don't know that you are behind. When you decide to play this hand you have two ways of winning it- either you are going to outdraw a K or you are ahead and your hand is going to hold up. The problem with limping is that you could hit your draw to two pair or a set and still lose if one of your opponents hits a gutshot. Also, say you limp and one of the callers behind you hits the gutshot. You call the turn and get raised behind by the player with the straight. Now it is going to be expensive for you if you decide to try to call down to a showdown before losing. You can avoid a lot of grief by raising the flop. If you get three bet at least you have a fair idea where you stand and can perhaps fold the turn if your hand does not improve. You have then spent 3 SB to find out that you are behind instead of 5.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that you dont know that you are behind, but that by raising the flop you might find out and be able to call/fold turn unimproved relatively cheaply.

However, I would imagine that it is more likely that you are behind than not, as there are more Kx combinations that I could envisage the flop better to have than say QJ combinations, and there is the added possibility of one of the 4 players behind you having a K.

Anyway, I am not sure that it would necessarily be costly if you called the flop bet and improved to 2 pair or a set on the turn.

If you made trips on the turn, that would not complete a straight for anyone and you might now be able to raise giving drawing hands incorrect odds to continue.

Also, if you made 2 pair on the turn, the only hand that would have made a straight is QJ. However, if you bet and were raised, you would still have odds to call to improve to a boat on the river.

I have to go now, but will be back later to have a look at responses. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Xhad]

QJ is not folding this flop.

[milesdyson]

i call

[Carmine]

You are most likely behind in the hand. Yes sometimes raisng with a worse hand is correct. I don't think this is one of them. The only hands that will fold correctly are the ones we have dominated (Ax/Tx). QJ is not folding and even gutshots will be getting 8:1 minimum enough to see a turn card with implieds.

I'd rather just call here and let all those hands tag along as I'm looking to turn a big draw. If the K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] was instead the K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] I would be more inclined to raise and play poker on the turn which would be dictated by the remianing flop action/turn card.