Discussion: Defending the Button - Page 3

loveminuszero · #21 05-08-2007, 09:06 PM

great post.

Grunch · #22 05-08-2007, 09:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
white,
i agree that the stuff on raising larger pf due to stacks is a bit meh. but did you read the part about the button being the real blind and the real thing we should fight for?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the idea of raising bigger with deep stacks is not necesarrily a given, but it is an interesting tactic. It might be a good idea to use this tactic when you are outclassed by your deep opponents, in order to turn a deep game where you are likely to make massive mistakes in to a short game where most of the decisions will be on the flop or preflop. Anyway I'm not saying its a good idea to make bigger PF raises in a deep game. What I am saying is that its worthwhile to at least think about the implications and not follow the 2p2 mantra like lemmings off the cliff.

But to simply dismiss the rest of the post as being very very wrong is just, ... well, very very wrong.

BobboFitos · #23 05-08-2007, 11:16 PM

This is somewhat bizarre and I dont fully agree with this concept, but I dont think it's a leak if you never cold call ever preflop. Somewhat of a limit mentality, but it has alot of credibility in NLH too.

fwiw, I 3bet a lag there alot, so dont get me wrong, im not mucking every time.

also, im sure i can find 1 hand or 2 in 100,000 or so that i've CCed T9d in position, and unless it was a misclick, it probably was the right situational play.

its just generally if you think cc is good vs the lag, 3bet is better, if you think 3bet is bad, typically fold is better.

once again, hard to explain that concept without ripping into a complete preflop discussion, which i dont want to do.

BobboFitos · #24 05-08-2007, 11:18 PM

im going to edit this and i actually found 10 cold calls in my database of T9s in position. im going to look at these hands.

BobboFitos · #25 05-08-2007, 11:26 PM

This wont prove anything, but it will be fun for me, so here goes: the 10 hands have a net -30.7. Had I folded all 10, that would've been money I saved. Lets see which were correct.
Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $76.00
BB: $933.90
UTG: $180.05
UTG+1: $393.60
MP1: $326.20
MP2: $640.10
MP3: $408.35
CO: $151.75
Hero (BTN): $527.50

Reads: Villain is a tag and he\'s raising an UTG limp. This is -EV knowing this, but I decided to call with absolute position and a likely 3way pot. For full ring this guy runs around 17/8 over more then 1200 hands I have with him. So his range UTG there is without a doubt an overpair the bulk of the time.

Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9 Players)
UTG calls $4, UTG+1 raises to $16, 4 folds, Hero calls $16, 2 folds, UTG calls $12

Flop: ($54) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 Players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $36, 2 folds

Pot Size: $90.00 ($2.70 Rake)

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 6 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $408.30
BB: $445.20
UTG: $91.40
MP: $400.00
CO: $495.00
Hero (BTN): $398.00

Reads: villain is xaston. he\'s a big lag. I should\'ve 3bet, but I guess I was lucky I didnt.

Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6 Players)
UTG folds, MP raises to $14, CO folds, Hero calls $14, SB raises to $70, BB folds, MP raises to $205, 2 folds

Pot Size: $293.00

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $390.00
BB: $283.75
UTG: $648.30
UTG+1: $480.30
MP1: $444.35
MP2: $130.50
MP3: $116.05
Hero (CO): $400.00
BTN: $700.00

Reads: Villain is a huge donk and I misread stacks. He was so shallow that my call is clear -EV, even though I\'ll likely be HU with a real bad player. once again a fold I should\'ve made, but I saw a horrible player and a playable hand so my first instinct was to call, which I did before I looked at stacks. Sometimes multi tabling causes these mistakes. 

Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9 Players)
3 folds, MP2 raises to $12, MP3 folds, Hero calls $12, 3 folds

Flop: ($30) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP2 bets $12, Hero folds

Pot Size: $42.00 ($1.50 Rake)

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $171.10
BB: $651.90
UTG: $587.35
UTG+1: $454.80
MP1: $110.60
MP2: $618.65
MP3: $78.00
CO: $430.60
Hero (BTN): $398.00

Reads: Pretty much same thing as the previous hand. 

Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9 Players)
2 folds, MP1 raises to $10.60, 3 folds, Hero calls $10.60, 2 folds

Flop: ($27.20) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
MP1 bets $12, Hero folds

Pot Size: $39.20 ($1.35 Rake)

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $408.90
BB: $378.00
UTG: $600.00
UTG+1: $709.10
MP1: $194.35
Hero (MP2): $409.60
MP3: $750.80
CO: $416.00
BTN: $390.00

Reads: minraiser is a guy with a full stack i clearly want to play a pot with. I shoudl\'ve 3bet him to isolate. Should I have called the flop minbet? Should I have raised? I think the fold is fine, even though I would\'ve won.

Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9 Players)
UTG raises to $8, 2 folds, Hero calls $8, 2 folds, BTN calls $8, 2 folds

Flop: ($30) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
UTG bets $4, Hero folds, BTN calls $4

Turn: ($38) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, BTN checks

River: ($38) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, BTN checks

Pot Size: $38.00 ($1.80 Rake)

UTG had A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (a pair of Fives) and WON (+$24.20)
BTN had T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and LOST (-$12.00)

i hope this isnt too long, so ill make the next post with more fun T9 hands.

BobboFitos · #26 05-08-2007, 11:31 PM

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 8 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $370.00
BB: $315.10
UTG: $138.95
UTG+1: $374.00
MP1: $370.00
Hero (MP2): $662.40
CO: $473.65
BTN: $556.80

Reads: No reads. Should I fold? it\'s a minraise and likely a big pot. Im not sure. I think THIS cold call was the correct preflop move. Anyone call postflop? =)

Preflop: Hero is dealt 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8 Players)
UTG raises to $8, UTG+1 calls $8, MP1 folds, Hero calls $8, 3 folds, BB calls $4

Flop: ($34) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 Players)
BB checks, UTG bets all-in for $130.95, 3 folds

Pot Size: $164.95 ($1.70 Rake)

fastforwarding to the hands i actually won. good play?

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 9 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $388.00
BB: $409.00
UTG: $905.00
UTG+1: $380.00
MP1: $482.85
MP2: $234.70
MP3: $463.20
CO: $558.00
Hero (BTN): $408.10

Preflop: Hero is dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (9 Players)
4 folds, MP3 raises to $12, CO folds, Hero calls $12, SB calls $10, BB folds

Flop: ($40) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 Players)
SB checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets $24, 2 folds

Pot Size: $64.00 ($2 Rake)

Poker Stars - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $2/$4 Blinds - 7 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

SB: $418.60
BB: $106.60
UTG: $221.15
UTG+1: $406.00
MP: $405.50
Hero (CO): $416.00
BTN: $130.65

Preflop: Hero is dealt T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (7 Players)
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $12, MP calls $12, Hero calls $12, 3 folds

Flop: ($42) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
UTG+1 checks, MP checks, Hero bets $38, 2 folds

Pot Size: $80.00 ($2.10 Rake)

these hands prove nothing but i think of the 10 i shuld've folded 6 of them, 1 of them was a good cold call, and 3bet the other 3, which seems like a ratio w/ this hand im fine with. i realize only 1 or 2 of these were shorthanded, too, which means the shorter the table the more apt i am to rr, so i bet my ratio is closer to 1:1 (or like 60% 3bet 40% fold). would have to investigate further, and i wont bore all of you with it

fwiw the minraise i normally treat as a limp, so if we took those out, there werent too many CCs (the hands i excluded were vs mirnaisers)

74o_Clownsuit · #27 05-09-2007, 12:31 AM

Nice posts Bobbo.

You know for a long time I was playing basically "3bet or fold" poker at 200NL. I made quite a bit of money.

Now I've been cold calling a little bit more than I normally did before. Also during this time I had my worst downswing ever.

Not saying that the two are directly related but it's something for me to analyze.

br.bm · #28 05-09-2007, 01:32 AM

I've adjusted my preflop range because of this thread hardly.

I don't raise or call raises oop w/ sc's, A2s to A5s or broadways anymore. (sc's I still overcall with). This really lowers my "fit-or-fold" losses.

On the other hand I opend my Co and Button raises. All the above, some 3 gap sc's, offsuit broadways etc.

played about 1k hands this way and netted 200BB (no bad beats, lost KK vs AA)
I like this style and hopefully I can keep it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

@blinds:
we can see the blinds as antes. Someday the 5card players where too lazy to pay ante every hand. so the dealer anted for everyone. you get it? There's no need to fight for your blind if you are 100BB or so deep. We pay per orbit to play.

BombayBadboy · #29 05-09-2007, 06:31 AM

Bobbo, thnx for the elaboration.

As for the topic of discussion, I think this quote from Dan Brights post says it best:

'I think we are really only pretending to fight for the blinds in nl cash game play. What we are really fighting for, is edges based on a % of stack sizes. For example, if I make almost all my money on the CO and the Button, why am I folding 58s to a raise in that position? On the button and in the co you ARE paying a blind. That blind is the money, as expressed as a % of stack sizes and modified/altered based on both the relatively quality of your opponent and lastly the quality of your hands, that you give up by folding it. '

BobboFitos · #30 05-09-2007, 06:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Bobbo, thnx for the elaboration.

As for the topic of discussion, I think this quote from Dan Brights post says it best:

'I think we are really only pretending to fight for the blinds in nl cash game play. What we are really fighting for, is edges based on a % of stack sizes. For example, if I make almost all my money on the CO and the Button, why am I folding 58s to a raise in that position? On the button and in the co you ARE paying a blind. That blind is the money, as expressed as a % of stack sizes and modified/altered based on both the relatively quality of your opponent and lastly the quality of your hands, that you give up by folding it. '

[/ QUOTE ]

i dunno, i make money by folding when im supposed to, calling when im supposed to, and raising when im supposed to. i try to make my opponents make less money by folding when they're not supposed to, call when they're not supposed to, and raise when they're not supposed to. I'm not fighting for "An edge based on a % of stack sizes."

Quoted again:
[ QUOTE ]
For example, if I make almost all my money on the CO and the Button, why am I folding 58s to a raise in that position?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, largely I'm supposed to fold that, some small small % of given conditions (game and opponent) will make it correct to call there, and obviously if villain is supposed to call or reraise if I 3bet here, but doesnt do that often, then I can force a mistake and profit by making my opponent play badly. So, really, the default in that case should be fold, with a somewhat small CC and 3bet % thrown in.