$10k Live Event - Play along Street by street - AQo in SB

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
3bet preflop (and obv fold to 4bet)

[/ QUOTE ]
Why fold to a 4-bet. If villain were a tight straightforward player, this would be correct. However, I think a 4-bet in this situation often just means he has a real hand and may not even be a real hand. You are getting significant pot odds.

Since the 4-bet decision is fairly close, I revise my opinion, and say flat call.

Reraise/folding is an awful use of AQ and worse than flat calling or reraising and being ready to go allin.

[LearnedfromTV]

i like a 3bet pre. I like pressuring him, I like making him call off too much with speculative hands and then fold in a larger pot, including sometimes folding the best hand (small pairs, 76s that flops bottom pair). Or, make him fold those same hands before he can make us fold the best hand when we miss. I think if you flat call AQ here you have to bluff some postflop, and if I'm going to be bluffing I'd like it to be in a larger pot, where effective stacks are most uncomfortable for him (like Foucault said proceeding after calling 15%-ish is very awkward), and with a stronger range. It isn't even so much about making him make "incorrect folds," as it is creating a situation where, among all the flops we don't like, there are a lot of flops he can't profitably play (if he even gets to the flop). When we reraise and he calls with 99 or JTs, he's folding a lot more, and in a bigger pot, than when he has 99 or JTs and we flat call. And for a decent chunk of his raising range, our reraise exchanges a ton of situations where we would check-fold the flop for spots where he folds preflop. I don't think flopping a pair OOP and inducing bluffs makes up for that.

Having called I like checking and i can't make my mind up after that. i play these spots too passively sometimes but I'm not sure I like what happens when we checkraise; we're basically trying to induce a 3bet bluff/semibluff, or we've decided that max value for our hand is picking up his cbet/hoping to calls a c-r with KQ. But check-call, check-call, check-fold or something is really tough to do on this kind of board, because we can get bluffed so easily later in the hand and our hand is usually pretty clearly medium strength.

Betgo how can you say "we have pot odds" to call a push; a) he's not shoving 6-7x our rr. b) rr to 1500 and he shoves (10.5k!). We call 9k for 21k. Our equity isn't close to 45% unless he's got a decent number of bluffs and weaker aces in his range, and he doesn't. And rr more isn't an answer, 1500 is pot, 16-17 maybe since we're OOP. But reraising to 2k+ is unnecessary, doing it to price ourselves in against the most optimistic shoving ranges, when he's rarely going to shove anyway, is obviously bad.

Also rr *does not* "turn AQ into 72" because with these stacks he's flatcalling the majority of hands he continues with (because he's not shoving 70bb over a 10-12bb reraise!). That doesn't mean this is an easy spot in a 3bet pot when he calls, but our hand strength matters.

[Mr.Poker]

I few people have made some really good points so far here but I don't preflop has been resolved in any way:

A few questions:

If you reraise PF, from what position does the OR have to be seated so this becomes a call/ is it ever a fold to a single raise?

What hands is Villian *ever* going to 4 bet us with here? And if so, what is he reraising to?

If you reraise and c-bet every flop, do you think that you always give up on the turn or might you fire at it again?

I've got some more for later too [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Fiksdal]

Brilliant post LFT.

[Mr.Poker]

[ QUOTE ]
Brilliant post LFT.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeh ...thought that too!

[Tackleberry]

I would reraise preflop any time. The reasons already have been posted quite often. The major reason for me is to get the initiative with a hand that is good, but not really a monster.

I would expect a value-4-bet (of about 2.5-3 times our raise) in cases of AA, KK, QQ, AKs. I would expect a protection-4-bet of about 4-5 times in any case of AKo, AQs, JJ, maybe even TT/99) as he is an aggressive player who could assume that we made a somewhat aggressive blind defense and expect us to fold a wide hand range against a 4-bet, what gives him the chance to end the hand right here.

I admit, I wouldn´t really know what to to, if Villain 4-bets our raise about 3x. I think, I am going to fold in most times as this move lets me back quite lost if a flop like the posted comes and I am OOP. What should I do, if I flat-call a 4-bet preflop, check-raise the flop and he comes over the top? I just have to fold and lost a decent amount of chips. The same when I lead the flop and he just calls. What to do on the turn in this case?!

To answer the last question: when I reraise preflop (as I suggest), conti-bet any flop (without having hit it) I would fire another barrel on the turn as I would expect him to do exactly this: calling the must-c-bet, waiting for a check on the turn and fire. If I fire myself on the turn and he calls again, I would c/f the river ui.

As I would still call myself a bloody beginner in tournament play please feel free to bash on me if I posted complete nonsense. [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
If you reraise PF, from what position does the OR have to be seated so this becomes a call/ is it ever a fold to a single raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don´t understand this question ... [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[betgo]

You are getting a little better than 4-3 pot odds to call a push, so you need to win 42% of the time. I just think he 4-bets AJ or KQ enough, as well as JJ-TT. Varkonyi 4-bet QTs against Hellmuth in this situation. Someone posted a hand where a top player 4-bet 53o not allin. I wouldn't 3-bet/fold AQo in a HU SNG. Given the players, the reraise could be a resteal with nothing, so the 4-bet doesn't have to be a monster.

If you are folding AQo here to a 4-bet, maybe you are not reraising with marginal hands enough.

If the decision is close on a 4-bet, then this is a flat call. I think this is the situation Sklansky was refering to about not turning AQ into 72. In fact, his examples were not raising AQ or TT if a reraise puts you in a difficult situation.

I want to have a clear decision as to what to do to a 4-bet, so reraise AK or JJ+. Only reraise AQ or TT if you feel you can easily call a 4-bet. Otherwise mix in some loose reraises with marginal but playable hands with your big hands.

[registrar]

I'd generally reraise pre-flop and then fold to a shove, given our reads and image. I three-bet called with AQ from BB with only slightly shallower stacks in the Million yesterday but it was the third time I'd three-bet the laggy button and he instashoved OTT so I figured he was playing back somewhat light (not light enough sadly).

Reasons for rr pre-flop have been covered. You want to make life awkward for your opponent and a tighty reraising OOP where a flop lead will put button to a stack decision is awkward.

[LearnedfromTV]

Betgo!

What number in this sequence does not make sense?

BB = 150. Raise = 450. Reraise = $1500. 4bet Allin lolonlinedonkaments = $10500.

This is early in a big live tournament. Ask OP how many pots had been 3bet thus far? How many of those had been 4bet? How many had been allin preflop?

He's not 4betting allin! If he does, we fold, and reraising was still correct. Because 90%+ of the time:

- he's not 4betting allin!
- he's not 4betting smaller!

Think about how many hands he's raising (a lot) and how many hands he's fourbetting allin (none). Then divide (none) by (a lot) and tell me again how much it matters what our pot odds are to call a push.

[Mr.Poker]

Ok, I didn't actually play this hand, so this post is using as much information as you have....

With our image, in this situation, I can't see how Villian is going to be 4 betting us light here, he simply isn't deep enough to fold to push so he is pot committing himself with any raise.

If he 4 bets us, we are behind his range, i would be almost certain of that.

The other major problem I have with this 4 betting talk is I can't imagine what hand Villian would actually 4 bet us with here in any case. Given that he is calling our raise with a much wider range than he is 4 betting us with, a 4 bet turns his hand into either the nuts or a bluff. However, we are an unknown player to him, he is unlikely to bluff 4 bet us with little to no idea how we play, therefore, any 4 bet would be the nuts EXCEPT, I can see the majority of players flat calling with the nuts in any case and probably raising our continuation bet.

In other words, I think the chances he 4 bets is VERY slim. Given his button range, I like 3 betting and c-betting any flop, although I do still have some concerns about how exploitable our play is here. I guess the fact neither myself or Villian is deep enough to run massive bluffs (i.e. floating flop) means that putting pressure on Villian is the best play.