KK big pot - Page 3

Hielko · #21 07-04-2007, 06:50 AM

I don't like the flop check. When the pot is 24SB big preflop you really can't protect your hand: just bet for value. There is no reason to not believe that you don't have an equity edge in this pot. Even if someone is having flushdraws and straightdraws you have an edge since there are probably also people in the pot drawing near dead that won't fold (in pots like this people will try to hit the BD flushdraw or go to the river to hit a set with 22 - I have played live games like that).

ProfessorBen · #22 07-04-2007, 07:13 AM

I was going to reply and HB hit all the prime points. Even if you give someone correct odds to call, you should still charge and there is no guarantee that people are going to bet for you on the turn.

I don't usually accuse people of being results-oriented automatically, but this post would've been much better if we stopped at the flop (not OPs fault, just the way the discussion ensued)

Niediam · #23 07-04-2007, 01:20 PM

Yes in a large pot it's probably correct to give free cards to longshow (1-3 out) draws on the turn if it keeps more legit draws (4+ outs) from seeing the river.

Should be obvious why.

HoneyBadger · #24 07-04-2007, 01:25 PM

I just showed that a 4 outer is still seeing the river. Ok, now it went bet/raise/3bet which was quite good, but they will likely still get their 10:1 odds on the turn to a raise. Suppose UTG didn't raise, it goes SB bets, BB call, UTG calls, Hero raises. They can expect at least a 20 BB pot, so a gutter to the nut can happily call 2 cold.

Harv72b · #25 07-04-2007, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Even retards fold when they hold a likely 0-1 outer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've lost to a lot of rivered 1 outers over the years. Besides which, unless someone raises your flop bet that 1 outer would be getting a minimum of 25:1 on his call, which would make calling correct with implied odds. Honestly, the only hand you're going to get rid of with a flop bet is something like QJ with no diamond. And even that's iffy.

Betting the flop has value, yes. Waiting to raise a likely bet after a safe turn card has more value, because many of those same draws will still be correct to call two bets. Not to mention that you give your opponents an opportunity to make a mistake by calling 2 (or more) cold on the turn, whereas they wouldn't be making one if they called 1 apiece on the flop & turn (think hands like AK/AQ).

Understand that I'm not saying you should always check the flop in a monster pot when likely holding the best hand (I don't think anyone is saying that). But in this particular instance, with this particular flop, and against these particular opponents in this particular order, I believe it is the correct play.

HoneyBadger · #26 07-04-2007, 01:48 PM

Yeah, I do understand the reasoning (I've read the book several times [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] ). I just can't see it being a good move here. Then again, it's a live game -- and I have zero experience with live games -- so I'll take you word for it.

Harv72b · #27 07-04-2007, 01:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Then again, it's a live game -- and I have zero experience with live games -- so I'll take you word for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

100% of my live game "experience" comes from these forums, unless you count getting ripped & playing something approaching poker with buddies who don't know if two pair beats three of a kind. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

My arguments in this hand are strictly theoretical in nature, and it's quite possible that I'm wrong (math people, this is your cue). It just feels right to check the flop hoping to raise a turn bet.

Xhad · #28 07-04-2007, 06:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Even retards fold when they hold a likely 0-1 outer.

[/ QUOTE ]

They will not see A2 as a 0-1 outer as you seem to be implying. I had someone call red T6o on a K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] flop getting far less than 10:1 yesterday, only to end up calling the flop and turn UI. That sort of thing happens in that sort of game.

Hielko · #29 07-04-2007, 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Then again, it's a live game -- and I have zero experience with live games -- so I'll take you word for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

100% of my live game "experience" comes from these forums, unless you count getting ripped & playing something approaching poker with buddies who don't know if two pair beats three of a kind. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds like the average live game

James. · #30 07-05-2007, 08:49 AM

the reasoning goes like this:

when the pot reaches a certain size, unusual manners of play are sometimes required to maximize our chances of winning it. the bigger the pot, the more unusual the play that can be required.

in this spot, the pot is sooooo huge that we are sacrificing some value on the flop to drag this monster more often. people are calling most any flop bet(or two) regardless so the reasoning is, they are outdrawing you on fourth no matter what happens. playing it this way keeps them from outdrawing you on the end(of course i'm referring to the weaker draws like 2-5 outers; flush/quality straight draws aren't going anywhere).

it's the correct play here; stronger with aces, but well played.