How to Balance WW games.

[LuckayLuck]

I wonder if POG ANNIVERSARY WAS BALANCED ZOMG
DRAMA


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Village:
fnord_too & chuckleslovakian - Seers. Both have n0 peeks, and both know what their name is.

DustinG - When a seer dies, he becomes the new seer.

Shortline - Can protect one player from being killed at night. Protection is 100% effective on vanillagers, 50% effective on village power characters.

GetThere1Time - PMs mods at the end of the day with one name. They change the named player's vote to the player of their choice. If both vote buyers choose the same person then that person's vote is simply nullified.

lastchance - Standard hooker role. Names one player each night and that player cannot perform night action.

Tokyo!! - May prevent own lynch once. They do so by posting in thread "ZOMG I AM TOKYO!!. I CANNOT BE LYNCHED TODAY" before 30 minutes prior to night falling. Anybody whose vote is on him may change their vote as votes on him are useless for that day. Voting is otherwise normal for that day. Anyone who fakes Tokyo!! will be modkilled.

metsandfinsfan - Is desperately seeking kyro's mother. Names one player every night. If they are kyro's mother, then she is converted to the village side and they form a permanent masonry. See her role below for more information.

ScottHoward (versions 1.0 and 2.0) - One user who has control of two accounts. Both gimmicks are otherwise considered vanillagers, and both accounts have a vote. If he claims while both accounts are alive, both accounts will be modkilled.

Luckayluck - Has one gun with 3 bullets. Any night he may take as many shots as he has bullets. Each shot has a 50% chance of being effective.

dmk - may name one player every night. Has masonry with this player for that night. May not name the same player twice. on death is revealed as "pogger".

wdcbooks - Flying Great Pumpkin. Twist: has the choice of "major effect" or "minor effect". Major effect: uses the random target algorithm first used in Mish Mash 5. Examples: king, death. Minor effect: always hits the person targeted. Examples: Target's vote counts for 2, or Target's vote counts for 0. Peeks as "pogger", dies as "Flying Great Pumpkin". Pumpkin must always choose a target every night or a negative effect for the village (or positive effect for the mods) will be randed.

4 Vanillager


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Chuckles, Fnord: 2 Seers = 11 Points
Dustin: Seer Jr. = 5 Points
Shortline: Bastardized Angel = 5 Points
GetThere1Time: Confirmed Villager = 2 Points
Lastchance: Confirmed Villager = 2 Points
Tokyo!!: Confirmed Villager = 2 Points
Mets: Confirmed Villager, but could leave game = 1.5 Points
SH1.0: Confirmed Villager = 2 Points
SH2.0: Confirmed Villager = 2 Points
LuckayLuck: Vigilante = 3 Points
DMK: Confirmed Villager = 2 Points
WDCBooks: Pumpkin?! = 3 Points
4 Vanillagers = 4 Points
(KyrosMother) = 0.5 Points

TOTAL PRO-VILLAGE: 45 Points


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Neutrals:
Kyro - is a serial killer. May kill one person per night. Wins by being the last man standing. Loses if either side wins before he does. See kyro's mother for more info. Immune to night death from the mods (unless Kyro's Mother is turned by metsandfinsfan), in which case he can be nightkilled as normal. If he is nightkilled and KM has not yet been converted the kill fails and kyro is told he was targeted for death by the wolves. If he is converted by KyrosMother before she has been found by metsandfinsfan, he loses his nightkill until the game reaches must-lynch but he does not exit the game. In addition, every night may name a player and form a masonry with them but cannot choose any player twice.

KyrosMother - Trying to make her son a better person. If she is a neutral (mets hasn't peeked her) then her goal is to stop kyro from killing everyone. She submits a name every night, if that person is kyro then she has won and exits the game, and kyro loses his nightkill ability UNTIL the game has reached must-lynch. If she has been peeked by mets then she is converted to the village team and is trying to convert kyro's power so that it is only used for good. If she names him then kyro is converted to the village but keeps up his killing ways. If she is converted by mets and subsequently converts kyro then she and mets both win and they both leave the game (but kyro doesn't obviously).

Zurvan - Has blinders. Given 3 random names at the start of the game. His goal is to get one of those 3 lynched. If he lynches one of those 3 he gets 1 POG$, if he fails he must pay 1$POG. If the 3 targets are alive then the next day then he may replace one of them with any new player of his choice. If one or more are dead then he takes everyone from the previous day's list the next day. Must submit list for the new day by noon. Wins by having a positive balance at time of death.

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Neutrals are pretty much neutral
KM is like +0.5 points to village since sometimes she'll get converted and become a confirmed villager



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Wolves:
JaredL - Names one player in the game within 30 minutes of nightfall. That player's vote is changed to the player of his choice. If both vote buyers choose the same person then that person's vote is simply nullified. Peeks & Dies as "evil mod".

Durron597 - Peeks as "evil mod". However, upon death he dies as "pogger". He is always a villager, even if he's not.

VoraciousReader - Standard prostitute role. Names one player each night and that player has no night action. Peeks & dies as evil mod

Matrix - Knows identity of the mods and wins with them. Is not part of night chat and the village doesn't need to kill him to win. Peeks as villager, dies as "matrix". Is not known to mafia. If they target him for death then nothing happens and the mafia are simply told their kill failed. The traitor is told that he was targeted by the wolves.

xorbie - Evil Seer. Dies as "xorbie", peeks as "xorbie". Does NOT get an n0 peek.

Madtown - Vanilla evil. Dies as "evil mod".

Mat Sklansky - Has two powers:
1) Once per game, takes over another users account. That user may not post for the entire day and loses their night action if they have one. Demon has full control of account in posting and voting in thread. Does not, however, get the player's vote buying or other daytime powers.
2) may name one player every night. Has masonry with this player for that night. May not name the same player twice.
Peeks & Dies as "evil mod".

Madtown has been added to the game - vanilla wolf.

Iron_yuppie - Told he is a villager, but peeks as wolf and is written up on death as wolf. Wolves know his identity. Wins with village. Dies as "evil mod".

soah - Told he is a villager. If he is nightkilled by the wolves he becomes an evil mod and wins with the mods. Peeks and dies as "evil mod". If he is not converted he peeks and dies as "pogger".

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JaredL: evil vote buyer. 6 Points
Durron: confusaments wolf. 5 Points
VR: Roleblocker. 6 Points
Matrix: "Traitor"...hmmm... 2 Points?
Xorbie: Evil Seer. 7 Points
Madtown: Vanilla. 4 Points
Mat Sklansky: The takeover could be like a kill and worse. Let's make it 5-6 Points...ehhh..5 Points.


Iron_Yuppie: Miller?? Gee, I dunno. +1 Point? Confusionaments?

Soah: Convertible Villager? Gee, I dunno. +1 Point?


WOLVES: 37 Points


45 vs 37 in favor of village


just goes to show that confirmable roles can really boost village points

or maybe my point system is still in the beta

who knows

[LuckayLuck]

Luckay's Rough WW Balance Point Value System (Beta):


Villager: 1 Point
Confirmed Villager: 2 Point

Seer (depends on size of game): 5-7 Points*
Angel (depends on size of game, strength of angel): 4-6* Points
Vigilante: 3 Points


Jester: +1 Point towards evil due to chaos
Serial Killer: 0 Points (Neutral EV, and is actually a natural mechanism to balance games in itself)
Cyradis: 0 Points (similar to serial killer mentality, except an even more extreme mechanism to balance games)


Wolf: 4 Points
Evil Vote Buyer: 6 Points
Roleblocker: 6 Points
Godfather: 6 Points
Evil Seer: 7 Points
Extra Kill: 1-2 Points
Presence of a Convertible Villager: 1-2 Points

make Good Team = Evil Team in points for a balanced game, in theory




*9-13 player games:

Seer = 5 Points
Angel (cannot protect himself/50% protect on seer, or cannot protect same person twice in a row) = 4 Points

15-19 Player Games:

Seer = 6 Points
Angel (cannot protect himself/50% protect on seer, or cannot protect same person twice in a row) = 5 Points

21-27 Player Games:

Seers = 6.5 Points each
Angel = 6 Points

29+ Player Games

Seers = 7 Points Each
Angel = 7 Points

[Mark_K]

I'm just happy your point system agrees with the game outcomes...

BTW, A point system works awesome with bidding in the Bridge card game so you do have some precedence that point based models can work... (OK it's apples and oranges, but it sounds good [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

[Mark_K]

OK, So now you're saying a Seer+Angel=GF+RB..

I do like the symmetry...

[LuckayLuck]

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Seer+Angel=GF+RB..

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my intuition tells me that seer + angel to balance out GF + RB is definitely a no-go, seer + angel is significantly more powerful, and that I have either overvalued GF/RB or undervalued seer/angel

probably undervaluation of seer/angel

[LuckayLuck]

actually, "it depends", probably
mostly on size of game

seer + angel >>>>> GF + RB in big games
seer + angel may be close to value to GF + RB given a weak angel in a small game (9-13 players)

[JaredL]

Didn't read all of luckay's stuff there but a key component as far as seer + angel vs godfather is how likely the angel's protection is to work. Some games, especially early on, it was 100% on everybody. This doesn't really work because the seer can come out day 1, get angel protection and get picks until the angel dies. It's usually 25, 50 or 75% effective on power roles. Which ratio it is is important.

I personally don't think the godfather directly does much. Think about what has to happen for that to be of use. Basically you need the godfather to be peeked and for the seer to clear the godfather. Even then everybody knows that there is a godfather so it doesn't mean a ton. If you look at the anniversary game, durron was peeked and died with the villager writeup. The entire point of this character is that his death will cast suspicion on the seer. This game everything took place exactly as it needed to to get that and everyone still 100% believed the seer. Part of it was some terrible fake seering by the evils, but that everybody knows the role exists makes it not as directly valuable.

The main benefit of the godfather for the mafia isn't the hidden peek, but that a little bit of doubt is cast on all of the seers peeks. They are not 100% clear even if he comes out and is then confirmed to be the seer. It's a bit hard to quantify this. If a would-be confirmed villager is lynched that is absolutely huge for the wolves. However, this still isn't very likely as the village is more likely to go after non confirmeds who are more likely wolves before being forced to look at the list, or wait until all but the godfather are dead and then consider everyone fair game.

[Mark_K]

I think there might be other problems...

In a 13 player 9/1/3 game, I get

Wolves = 12 points
Villagers = 6 (seer)+ 8 (other villagers) = 14 points...

Wolves seem under valued.

[Mark_K]

[ QUOTE ]
actually, "it depends", probably
mostly on size of game

seer + angel >>>>> GF + RB in big games
seer + angel may be close to value to GF + RB given a weak angel in a small game (9-13 players)

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Ahh so you need a C*Number Players term in your equation.
I just hope you don't need to go second order (C1+C2*n)...

[LuckayLuck]

A humorous look at Dungeon I: The most imbalanced game of all time (not a dig at sighing, it was a completely new genre, and balancing was extremely hard). But looking back, and it is of course easy to look back, this is what I get:


Good Side;
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Cleric (3): Each night, can optionally heal one Adventurer (no effect on a Monster). The first time the power is used, it heals 10 points of damage. Each subsequent use heals 10 points more, until after five healing attempts there is no more healing power left (so the final heal is for 50 points). Can use the power on himself. However, one of the Clerics (and we're not sure which) has been forsaken by his god. Any healing attempt he makes will instead inflict the appropriate amount of damage to the targeted player, including Monsters.

Druid (1): Can use each of the following abilities once per game, at night, no more than one ability per night:
--* Blanket of Health: All non-Monsters gain 10 health. The use of this spell is announced publically, but does not reveal who cast it.
--* Invisibility: Take no damage from voting-melee the next day. (like most other spells, the use of this spell is not announced publically)
--* Armor of Thorns: Anyone attacking you that night takes an amount of damage equal to the damage they do to you. Does not work on Pestilence attacks or pre-existing poisons.
--* Nature's Uprising: All Monsters lose 10 health. Using this ability drains you of all power, and you can no longer use other abilities. The use of this spell is announced publically, but does not reveal who cast it.

Paladin (2): Each night, can optionally protect another player (even a Monster) from all damage taken, but he himself will take half the damage amount. He can protect himself in this way, and thus take only half damage from attacks. He may choose not to use this power, in which case he himself is protected during the next day instead, and he takes only half damage from that day's voting-melee. If two paladins protect the same person, they protect in sequence, determined randomly.

Barbarian (4): 2 start with 100 health points, and 2 start with 150 health points. Each night, can optionally choose to attack another player with his axe, dealing 0, 10 or 30 points of damage (randomly determined).

Wizard (2): Starts with 60 health points. Can use each of the following abilities once per game, at night, no more than one ability per night:
--* Lightning Bolt: Smite another player with a lightning bolt, dealing 50 points of damage.
--* Illusory Twin: Avoid all night effects aimed at you.
--* Magic Missile: Hit three players for 10 damage each.
--* Control Monster: Select a player and attempt to control them as a Monster. If they are not a Monster, nothing happens. If they are a Monster, you learn their role and they learn your role. Additionally, there is a 50% chance that the Monster will get loose when you first attempt to control him, in which case you will be viciously devoured (killing you, and revealing their nature in public).

Diviner (1): Seer. Learns the class or monster-name of one selected target per night. The diviner DOES get a Night 0 peek. (this is a change, both to the count -- only one seer -- and to the night 0 peeking)

Mystic (1): Starts with 80 health points. Learns which Monster makes each night's attack (by monster-name, not which player). Senses any spell cast by a Wizard, Cleric, Druid, or Conjurer, though not who cast it nor what the target was.

Monk (1): Starts with 80 health points. Does two attacks (on the same target) during voting-melee. Automatically avoids one attack on him (if any) during voting-melee. If undamaged during any night phase, the Monk meditates and recovers 20 health at dawn.

Thief (1): If attacked by any player at night, has a 25% chance of avoiding the attack and learning that he was targeted. Each attack is avoided separately. Additionally his sharp night senses allow him a 25% chance of learning the identity of each person who attempted to attack him, but not their role or specific damage amount. These powers apply only to abilities that deal damage, and do not apply to attacks that target more than one person at a time (pestilence, fire, magic missile).

Assassin (1): Once per game, the assassin may make an attack on another player for 100 points of damage. This attack can come during the day by sending a PM to the moderator. If the attack is made in daylight, the assassin's role is revealed publically, but the target fights back fiercely, reducing the assassin to one hit point remaining. If made at night, nothing is revealed. The attack may not be made within ten minutes of nightfall, when the players are gathering towards the evening's melee.


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Cleric (3) - sort of like 2 weak seers actually, along with some semi-doctor-ish-qualities, since the monsters didn't know if they would be targetted by a heal with a cleric. The forsaken one I'll give 3 points, the clerics I'll give 5 points each. 13 Points

Druid (1): Coolish. Confirmed Villager, with lots of useful abilities. 3 Points

Paladin (2): 2 extremely powerful Angels. 2*6 = 12 Points.

Barbarian (4): Actually could confirm themselves easily. Confirmable villagers. 2*4 = 8 Points.

Wizard (2): The control monster would be like a one-time-seer-peek. Plus lots of cool things. Let's give them 3.5 points each = 7 Points.

Diviner (1): Seer. 6 Points.

Mystic (1): Super-Tracker. 4 Points.

Monk (1): Confirmable Villager. 2 Points.

Thief (1): Villager. 1 Point.

Assassin (1): Vigilante. 3 Points.

Villagers: 59 Points

Evils:

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Abaddon "Destroyer". Has 150 health points. Hits a single target for 100 damage.

Adramelech "Flame". Burns three separate targets for 50 damage each. Must choose exactly three targets, unless there are only two players left.

Vetis "Corruptor". Hits target for either 10 or 30 damage, at random. If the target is killed by this attack, he becomes corrupted into a Lesser Demon, who has no special powers. Note that the corrupted player has the Monster victory condition and joins Monster Chat at night.

Barbas "Pestilence". Hits all non-Monsters for 10 damage each.

Conjurer (1). (NOTE: This role has changed!) Has 60 health points. A human who initially summoned these Monsters into the world. Converses with them at night, and shares their victory condition, and DOES have to be killed for the Adventurers to win. If viewed by a Diviner, appears to be a Wizard. Immune to the "Control Monster" and "Nature's Uprising" spells. Can attack normally for 50 damage. Separate from the nightly Monster attack, can use each of the following abilities once per game, at night, no more than one ability per night:
--* Lightning Bolt: Smite another player with a lightning bolt, dealing 50 points of damage.
--* Illusory Twin: Avoid all night effects aimed at you.
--* Magic Missile: Hit three players for 10 damage each.
--* Control Adventurer: Select an Adventurer to control for the night. All that player's night actions have no effect. There is a 50% chance that you learn their class. There is a 50% chance that they learn your class.

Lesser Demon. (only in the game if an Adventurer is corrupted) Has 50 health points. Hits a single target for 50 damage.


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Abaddon - Vanilla Wolf. 4 Points.
"Flame" - Vanilla Wolf with a sort of different attack. 5 Points.
"Corruptor" - It would prove near impossible to actually corrupt anyone. 10 or 30 damage? gack! And of course the adventurer would probably already have cried about getting hit hard. Blah. Let's say, 5 points.
"Pestilence" - lol 10 damage. 4 points.
Conjurer - sort of weak godfather wolf. 5 points.


Wolves: 23 Points



59 Points vs 23 Points

zomg
it was a slaughter in the game too

but it was a good lesson in balancing ww games
I look forward to Dungeon III a lot too
where is it zomg