Pope John Paul II Miracle

[MidGe]

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In light of the stunning lack of any meaningful analysis in this thread save one or two posts, I'll outline the possible conclusions that an impartial 3rd party would have to consider:

1) The nun never suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and thus could not possibly have been cured from something she never had in the first place. A comprehensive review of her medical records, along with thorough interviews with her doctors, would easily confirm or deny this possibility.

2) The Church, eager to capitalize on the "rock star" appeal of the late Pontiff, concocted the story to expedite the process of his cannonization and to appeal to believers. In this process, they persuaded the nun and her doctors to lie about her condition, and forged all relevant medical documentation to support the case that she'd been miraculously cured.

3) The nun suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and the disease went into spontaneous remission of its own accord.

4) Through the intersession of the late Pontiff, this nun was miraculously cured of Parkinson's disease.

In the end, I believe that either possibility #1 or #4 will turn out to be the case. I will leave it to the inquiry to conclude as to whether or not this nun's cure was miraculous or not. As I've said, Parkinson's disease is a degenerative nerve condition that, unlike some instances with cancer, does not simply fix itself or go into remission.

For those convinced that #2 is a certainty, consider the irreparable damage done to the Church if it is found to have faked a miracle. This is an intolerable risk given the number of people that must be involved, namely all of the nun's doctors, all of her fellow sisters, and not to mention the nun herself. A deliberate fake, given the circumstances, is unlikely for simply being too risky. Also to be considered is the grave sin against its own teachings that the Church would commit should it decide to fake a miracle.

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Could very well be #3 also. That would be my choice, until we know more it has gone in remission, a phenomena not exclusively associated with believers! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[tolbiny]

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A French Nun attributes her cure of Parkinson's disease to the late Pontiff. Especially interesting since Parkinson's is a degenerative nerve disease that shouldn't simply disappear. Also of note is that John Paul II suffered from this disease in his later years.

Here


As always, I'm curious for commentary from the faithful and skeptics alike.

BDD

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the whole process is a logical joke- they take an event which by their own definition has no rational explanation and then they try to ascribe to it an explanation. How are you supposed to react to this statement "we have no idea why her Parkinson's went away, therefore it was the work of a guy who died several months ago". Unless they are doing rigorous breakdowns of unlikely events and showing that a statistically significant larger number occurred among people who prayed shortly after JPII's death its a meaningless process.
Seriously, out of hundreds of millions of Catholics, how many unexplained events would you expect to occur over a year long period?

[Bigdaddydvo]

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In light of the stunning lack of any meaningful analysis in this thread save one or two posts, I'll outline the possible conclusions that an impartial 3rd party would have to consider:

1) The nun never suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and thus could not possibly have been cured from something she never had in the first place. A comprehensive review of her medical records, along with thorough interviews with her doctors, would easily confirm or deny this possibility.

2) The Church, eager to capitalize on the "rock star" appeal of the late Pontiff, concocted the story to expedite the process of his cannonization and to appeal to believers. In this process, they persuaded the nun and her doctors to lie about her condition, and forged all relevant medical documentation to support the case that she'd been miraculously cured.

3) The nun suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and the disease went into spontaneous remission of its own accord.

4) Through the intersession of the late Pontiff, this nun was miraculously cured of Parkinson's disease.

In the end, I believe that either possibility #1 or #4 will turn out to be the case. I will leave it to the inquiry to conclude as to whether or not this nun's cure was miraculous or not. As I've said, Parkinson's disease is a degenerative nerve condition that, unlike some instances with cancer, does not simply fix itself or go into remission.

For those convinced that #2 is a certainty, consider the irreparable damage done to the Church if it is found to have faked a miracle. This is an intolerable risk given the number of people that must be involved, namely all of the nun's doctors, all of her fellow sisters, and not to mention the nun herself. A deliberate fake, given the circumstances, is unlikely for simply being too risky. Also to be considered is the grave sin against its own teachings that the Church would commit should it decide to fake a miracle.

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Could very well be #3 also. That would be my choice, until we know more it has gone in remission, a phenomena not exclusively associated with believers! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Hey Mid [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img],

Yes, #3 is certainly a possibility, but for the following reasons I'd argue it's a significant underdog to be so. I make the case with the assumption that what the nun says she believes to be true:

1) I'm unfamiliar with cases of Parkinson's Disease going into remission, as it wreaks irreparable damage on the nervous system.

2) She felt immediate relief following sincere prayers to the late Holy Father.

3) JP II himself suffered from Parkinson's.

Now we're all familiar enough to with statistics to know that it is possible to lose a dozen consecutive hands to runner runner quads. However, for these aspects of the case to match up exactly is extraordinary, to say the least.

Hence I argue that #1 or #4 are the likliest of options.

Another possibility is an offshoot of #3: That her prayers induced a psychological state where her body was able to heal itself. Again, I think this one is an underdog, but I'll throw it out here nonetheless.

[tolbiny]

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1) I'm unfamiliar with cases of Parkinson's Disease going into remission, as it wreaks irreparable damage on the nervous system.

2) She felt immediate relief following sincere prayers to the late Holy Father.

3) JP II himself suffered from Parkinson's.

Now we're all familiar enough to with statistics to know that it is possible to lose a dozen consecutive hands to runner runner quads. However, for these aspects of the case to match up exactly is extraordinary, to say the least.

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There are approximately 1.1 billion catholics in the world. A quick google search shows that in the US Parkinson's has a diagnosed prevalence of around 0.37%, or 1 million people. So you would expect that some 3-5 million Catholics in the world to have Parkinson's, and those people being A. Religious and B. ill are probably going to be extremely likely to pray for relief/help. Add into this that the Pope was shot and died of Influenza means that there are probably several million more people who 1. were catholic, 2. prayed, and 3. suffered from an ailment that PJII suffered from a some point in his life.

[yukoncpa]

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And if #4 is found to be the case, think of the irreparable damage to the church once people know the Pope has power to cure diseases but uses it only for one random case of Parkinson's.


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Yes, why are all these new miracles for such paltry matters? What happened to the good old days where God struck down all the male children of Egypt? Where he would destroy entire cities because it’s inhabitants committed sodomy, where he would destroy a city because one drunk peed on a holy wall.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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1) I'm unfamiliar with cases of Parkinson's Disease going into remission, as it wreaks irreparable damage on the nervous system.

2) She felt immediate relief following sincere prayers to the late Holy Father.

3) JP II himself suffered from Parkinson's.

Now we're all familiar enough to with statistics to know that it is possible to lose a dozen consecutive hands to runner runner quads. However, for these aspects of the case to match up exactly is extraordinary, to say the least.

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There are approximately 1.1 billion catholics in the world. A quick google search shows that in the US Parkinson's has a diagnosed prevalence of around 0.37%, or 1 million people. So you would expect that some 3-5 million Catholics in the world to have Parkinson's, and those people being A. Religious and B. ill are probably going to be extremely likely to pray for relief/help. Add into this that the Pope was shot and died of Influenza means that there are probably several million more people who 1. were catholic, 2. prayed, and 3. suffered from an ailment that PJII suffered from a some point in his life.

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Fair enough, though you fail to mention the mysterious healing of a disease which, unless someone can show me otherwise, does not go into remission.

[Hopey]

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In light of the stunning lack of any meaningful analysis in this thread save one or two posts, I'll outline the possible conclusions that an impartial 3rd party would have to consider:

1) The nun never suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and thus could not possibly have been cured from something she never had in the first place. A comprehensive review of her medical records, along with thorough interviews with her doctors, would easily confirm or deny this possibility.

2) The Church, eager to capitalize on the "rock star" appeal of the late Pontiff, concocted the story to expedite the process of his cannonization and to appeal to believers. In this process, they persuaded the nun and her doctors to lie about her condition, and forged all relevant medical documentation to support the case that she'd been miraculously cured.

3) The nun suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and the disease went into spontaneous remission of its own accord.

4) Through the intersession of the late Pontiff, this nun was miraculously cured of Parkinson's disease.


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5) The nun was misdiagnosed as having Parkinson's. Her body naturally healed whatever ailment she actually had.

I'm not saying this is what happened, I'm just saying that it's another possibility -- and one that I'm much more inclined to believe than 'popedidit'.

Edit: And in doing a quick search on wikipedia, I discovered this little tidbit:

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Diagnosis

18F PET scan shows decreased dopamine activity in the basal ganglia, a pattern which aids in diagnosing Parkinson's disease. There are currently no blood or laboratory tests that have been proven to help in diagnosing PD. Therefore the diagnosis is based on medical history and a neurological examination. The disease can be difficult to diagnose accurately. The Unified Parkinson's Disease Rating Scale is the primary clinical tool used to assist in diagnosis and determine severity of PD. Indeed, only 75% of clinical diagnoses of PD are confirmed at autopsy.[10] Early signs and symptoms of PD may sometimes be dismissed as the effects of normal aging. The physician may need to observe the person for some time until it is apparent that the symptoms are consistently present. Usually doctors look for shuffling of feet and lack of swing in the arms. Doctors may sometimes request brain scans or laboratory tests in order to rule out other diseases. However, CT and MRI brain scans of people with PD usually appear normal.


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Misdiagnosis FTW.

[Hopey]

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Fair enough, though you fail to mention the mysterious healing of a disease which, unless someone can show me otherwise, does not go into remission.

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Unless she never had it in the first place.

[Bigdaddydvo]

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Fair enough, though you fail to mention the mysterious healing of a disease which, unless someone can show me otherwise, does not go into remission.

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Unless she never had it in the first place.

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I readily recognize this as a possibility. To quote myself from earlier in the thread:

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1) The nun never suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and thus could not possibly have been cured from something she never had in the first place. A comprehensive review of her medical records, along with thorough interviews with her doctors, would easily confirm or deny this possibility.


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[Hopey]

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Fair enough, though you fail to mention the mysterious healing of a disease which, unless someone can show me otherwise, does not go into remission.

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Unless she never had it in the first place.

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I readily recognize this as a possibility. To quote myself from earlier in the thread:

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1) The nun never suffered from Parkinson's Disease, and thus could not possibly have been cured from something she never had in the first place. A comprehensive review of her medical records, along with thorough interviews with her doctors, would easily confirm or deny this possibility.


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Unfortunately, since Parkinson's is a very hard disease to diagnose properly, and since her symptoms seem to have disappeared, it is impossible for your scenario to play itself out properly. The only way that a definitive diagnosis could have been made is if the nun had died and a post-mortem examination was performed on her brain. Of course, had she died from the disease, we wouldn't be having this discussion, as there would not have been a "miracle" to discuss. It's a very nice catch-22.

That being said, I'm sure the church will go through the motions of "investigating" her claims, and will inevitably canonize the pope based partly on this "miracle". The vast majority of Roman Catholics will assume that the church is beyond reproach in these matters and will buy into the story hook, line, and sinker.