JJ multiway flops top set, plays badly?

[rppkoz]

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I had about 20 on the villain, considerably more on the table in general (hence my 'tight-trappy' table read). I'm really surprised that you think shoving the river is +EV, especially since I still have a playable stack left if I just call and lose.

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What hand would you need to shove the river? Would you shove 89, no club? KcQc? Or do you need the nuts? I like the river call if the club draw was present on the flop (though that would change the line on other streets obv). But I expect to see 89 virtually never, and clubs a very small % of the time, esp in comparison to the times when he can pay you off. The real cash is top 3 in these, you have to accumulate. You have a very powerful and very underrepresented hand. You have underrepped your hand on every single street.

Would you have called a shove from villain?

[/ QUOTE ]Instantly. The size of his river bet locked me up a little - it seemed very value-bettish.

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You do realize that you completely under-repped the strength of your hand right?

[sethypooh21]

Yeah...so I f'ed myself on the turn regardless. with ~7k in the pot and about 9-10k behind, would I just have been best off shoving the turn? I'm likely getting called by AJ/over pairs, and any FD that calls is making a mistake, while s 4k bet or so pot commits me, but gives FD's odds to draw.

[Bakes]

plz push riv

[reecelights]

Haven't read any other replies, but you need to bet the turn. Your goal is to build a pot, and this is the time to extract value, not the river, when he has 100% of the information he needs.

As played, if you re-raise the river you are only getting called by a hand that beats you. Call.

[Lord_Strife]

Preflop is fine, the stacks are pretty deep I like seeing what develops.

Flop is also fine, most people agree with this.

As far as the turn is concerned, dear god. At first I liked it because opponents line is very linear to AK, AQ and by checking behind you give him another chance to bluff at it (success) but if you take this route then you have to get it allin on the river. If you elect to simply call the river, then you have to bet to protect your hand.

[Black Aces 518]

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As played, if you re-raise the river you are only getting called by a hand that beats you. Call.

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This is insanity. The pot will be ~15K if you push and villain has to call about 5500. You think QQ-AA is folding? Hell no. It's a 10/180. AJ is not folding. TT is calling regardless, and villain could easily have TT.

He's folding AK and AQ, unless they are clubs. He's calling (and losing with) AA, KK, QQ, TT, 77, 22, 44, AJ, KJ, JT, sometimes QJ. He's calling and beating you with 89, 2 clubs. Given the preflop line, 89 is very unlikely. Easy easy jam, esp given the turn line.

[reecelights]

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As played, if you re-raise the river you are only getting called by a hand that beats you. Call.

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This is insanity. The pot will be ~15K if you push and villain has to call about 5500. You think QQ-AA is folding? Hell no. It's a 10/180. AJ is not folding. TT is calling regardless, and villain could easily have TT.

He's folding AK and AQ, unless they are clubs. He's calling (and losing with) AA, KK, QQ, TT, 77, 22, 44, AJ, KJ, JT, sometimes QJ. He's calling and beating you with 89, 2 clubs. Given the preflop line, 89 is very unlikely. Easy easy jam, esp given the turn line.

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Forgot it was a $10/180, and lost track of pot/stack sizes. But even given that, how many players at this buy-in bet the flop with an overpair or a set, and check the turn to induce a river call? Villain having the case J is very unlikely, and he is not calling with AK/AQ unless it is two clubs. Based on villain's line, I think AA, KK, QQ, 77, 22, are very unlikely as they would have continued their aggression on the turn. I therefore feel you are only called by TT, 33 (I think you mistakenly said 44), or a very unlikely J here.

I expect villain to have AK or AQ a lot here as it makes far more sense to CBet the flop and then either take another stab at the river OR value bet their flush.

[Black Aces 518]

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As played, if you re-raise the river you are only getting called by a hand that beats you. Call.

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This is insanity. The pot will be ~15K if you push and villain has to call about 5500. You think QQ-AA is folding? Hell no. It's a 10/180. AJ is not folding. TT is calling regardless, and villain could easily have TT.

He's folding AK and AQ, unless they are clubs. He's calling (and losing with) AA, KK, QQ, TT, 77, 22, 44, AJ, KJ, JT, sometimes QJ. He's calling and beating you with 89, 2 clubs. Given the preflop line, 89 is very unlikely. Easy easy jam, esp given the turn line.

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Forgot it was a $10/180, and lost track of pot/stack sizes. But even given that, how many players at this buy-in bet the flop with an overpair or a set, and check the turn to induce a river call? Villain having the case J is very unlikely, and he is not calling with AK/AQ unless it is two clubs. Based on villain's line, I think AA, KK, QQ, 77, 22, are very unlikely as they would have continued their aggression on the turn. I therefore feel you are only called by TT, 33 (I think you mistakenly said 44), or a very unlikely J here.

I expect villain to have AK or AQ a lot here as it makes far more sense to CBet the flop and then either take another stab at the river OR value bet their flush.

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Lot of villains will check the set/overpair on turn to induce a bet, which they can then c/r. You are clearly interested in the pot, calling a dry flop. So AA/KK/QQ/77/33 thinks "he must have a jack, I'll feign that I'm giving up, he bets to not let AK catch up for free, and then I TRAPPED IM, JOHNNY I TRAPPED IM"

[reecelights]

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Hell no. It's a 10/180.

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Lot of villains will check the set/overpair on turn to induce a bet, which they can then c/r. You are clearly interested in the pot, calling a dry flop. So AA/KK/QQ/77/33 thinks "he must have a jack, I'll feign that I'm giving up, he bets to not let AK catch up for free, and then I TRAPPED IM, JOHNNY I TRAPPED IM"

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Not a "Hell no. It's a 10/180" Villain. They will not raise only 4xPF with 3 limpers AND bet 2/3pot on the flop. I would expect no more than a 1/2pot bet on that flop and then an undersized bet to try to pull you along on the turn. I agree TT would probably take this line, 77 or 22 are far less likely to take this line.

But in all, I think you're overthinking this hand, giving villain credit for overthinking this hand and ignoring the very standard Harrington-10/180 line for AK or AQ: Re-raise preflop. CBet the flop. Check the turn when villain shows strength by calling. Take another stab at it OR value bet the river because Hero showed little strength on the turn.

Whatever. It doesn't matter because if Hero had bet this turn the way he should have, he would have known for sure if it was an overpair that was trying to check-raise or a backdoor draw that got there on the river.