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#21
04-02-2007, 02:24 PM
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Re: An interesting hand
This discussion can go on and on but the main point here is that if I'm reading it right DS is arguing that checking the flop and checking the turn are the 'clear cut' best actions...in other words not even debatable. IMO this is ludicrous.
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#22
04-02-2007, 02:25 PM
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Re: An interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] I was talking about the opponents. And yes sometimes I do it. And saying its a bad play to call the flop with 99 is just stupid. [/ QUOTE ] Oh yeah, my mistake. I agree calling the flop with 99 is bad. [/ QUOTE ] You're not agreeing with me. Read again. [/ QUOTE ] You are right. But how is calling the flop with 99 anything but spew?
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#23
04-02-2007, 02:27 PM
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Re: An interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] How is that? Remember we are assuming decent players. [/ QUOTE ] Decent players does not equal set miners. [/ QUOTE ] How often do 6 decent players see a limped flop together?
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#25
04-02-2007, 02:31 PM
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Re: An interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
This discussion can go on and on but the main point here is that if I'm reading it right DS is arguing that checking the flop and checking the turn are the 'clear cut' best actions...in other words not even debatable. IMO this is ludicrous. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, but the only reason to bet this on the flop is to try to get money in the pot from a worse hand right? But given this board you just aren't going to get a worse hand to call you so your bet has close to 0EV. Of course the two exceptions to this are if someone does have a weaker set, but again they will be happy to raise on later streets so getting their money isn't a problem, and also if they are bad players and will call a flop bet with 88/99, but we already assumed they weren't, so I just can't see given all the conditions a bet being correct. If you told me there was a calling station on the button or something then there is an argument for betting, but we have all decent players.
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#26
04-02-2007, 02:34 PM
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Re: An interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This discussion can go on and on but the main point here is that if I'm reading it right DS is arguing that checking the flop and checking the turn are the 'clear cut' best actions...in other words not even debatable. IMO this is ludicrous. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, but the only reason to bet this on the flop is to try to get money in the pot from a worse hand right? But given this board you just aren't going to get a worse hand to call you so your bet has close to 0EV. Of course the two exceptions to this are if someone does have a weaker set, but again they will be happy to raise on later streets so getting their money isn't a problem, and also if they are bad players and will call a flop bet with 88/99, but we already assumed they weren't, so I just can't see given all the conditions a bet being correct. If you told me there was a calling station on the button or something then there is an argument for betting, but we have all decent players. [/ QUOTE ] So players are just open limping with mid pairs, and folding unless they hit a set in this game? Yeah, they're decent players.
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#28
04-02-2007, 02:37 PM
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Re: An interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, but the only reason to bet this on the flop is to try to get money in the pot from a worse hand right? But given this board you just aren't going to get a worse hand to call you so your bet has close to 0EV. [/ QUOTE ] I think you are being results oriented seeing the turn. So on what street is a worse hand going to call you? When is someone going to suck out on you? Bet the flop. Many holdings will call a flop bet, and if they don't, they're not going to call you on the turn or river unless they improve -- and then they are going to be suspicious of you or crush you.
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#29
04-02-2007, 02:38 PM
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Re: An interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] This discussion can go on and on but the main point here is that if I'm reading it right DS is arguing that checking the flop and checking the turn are the 'clear cut' best actions...in other words not even debatable. IMO this is ludicrous. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, but the only reason to bet this on the flop is to try to get money in the pot from a worse hand right? But given this board you just aren't going to get a worse hand to call you so your bet has close to 0EV. Of course the two exceptions to this are if someone does have a weaker set, but again they will be happy to raise on later streets so getting their money isn't a problem, and also if they are bad players and will call a flop bet with 88/99, but we already assumed they weren't, so I just can't see given all the conditions a bet being correct. If you told me there was a calling station on the button or something then there is an argument for betting, but we have all decent players. [/ QUOTE ] "Decent players" does not mean a table full of clairvoyant sharks. It means DECENT. (Main Entry: de·cent Pronunciation: 'dE-s&nt Function: adjective 4 : fairly good : ADEQUATE, SATISFACTORY <decent wages>  PLENTY of hands that you beat will call a flop bet, including 88 and 99. Get it out of your head that they won't. And its not that important but if they have 22 or 33 you want to bet now. What if the turn is a 4 and river a 5? Now are you or them gonna want to get your whole stack in? Sorry to come off as a little rude here but this thread is starting to put me on tilt.
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#30
04-02-2007, 02:40 PM
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Re: An interesting hand
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] [ QUOTE ] This discussion can go on and on but the main point here is that if I'm reading it right DS is arguing that checking the flop and checking the turn are the 'clear cut' best actions...in other words not even debatable. IMO this is ludicrous. [/ QUOTE ] Ok, but the only reason to bet this on the flop is to try to get money in the pot from a worse hand right? But given this board you just aren't going to get a worse hand to call you so your bet has close to 0EV. Of course the two exceptions to this are if someone does have a weaker set, but again they will be happy to raise on later streets so getting their money isn't a problem, and also if they are bad players and will call a flop bet with 88/99, but we already assumed they weren't, so I just can't see given all the conditions a bet being correct. If you told me there was a calling station on the button or something then there is an argument for betting, but we have all decent players. [/ QUOTE ] So players are just open limping with mid pairs, and folding unless they hit a set in this game? Yeah, they're decent players. [/ QUOTE ] That's right. You can go back to the article to read why they are limping behind limpers given the stack sizes, but after that that's right. A good player knows betting a marginal overpair into that many limpers adds up to one thing... losing money. Never mind the fact that they have to dodge close to half the deck on the turn AND river if they get a call, never mind the fact that thier could be a set waiting behind them to raise or check raise... Spew...
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