NL25: Great, flopped bottom two on ace high board, right?

[danny8]

the only hand you're behind on the flop is AA... your well ahead of his range, you have to raise here - you're likely to get paid off by AK,AQ,AJ... prolly get a call out of QQ/KK too.

the turns a crappy card, you're behind KK and AK now, i'd prolly call such a tiny bet.

you've badly under repped your hand, looks like your playing a weak ace or scared underpair, get his stack in the middle on the flop!

[GtrHtr]

raise the flop to $11 call a rr shove, call the turn, fold the river.

[Scuba Chuck]

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I'm trying not to be results oriented but this board is the extreme of how 2-pair becomes worthless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on, if we were results oriented, this is a good fold (jk).

Ok, what am I missing here? How is this board the extreme case of how a 2-pair becomes worthless? For some reason, I'm under the impression that this case is exactly the opposite.

For instance, the following are some examples of where I think 2-pair becomes worthless really fast.

Villain has same range as this hand.

1)Hero has KT
Board is AKT with two clubs.

2)Hero has 78
Board is 789 with two clubs.

Edit: N/M, I see now you were referring to all 5 cards, not just the flop.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You said that his weak bet is a pretty big tell. So what does it tell you? That he is a donk or that he is strong or weak or what?

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This is the key issue in hands like these. Trying to "read" his bet-sizing here is IMO futile.

1. Not only is it impossible to say (readless) if weak bet means weak or strong
2. There is no way of knowing if VILLAIN's perception of strong is correct. Perhaps he thinks A9s is strong on this board. We don't know.

There are still so many "naked-ace-stacker-offers" out there I am more then happy to felt here and if need be double this villains online bankroll...

[/ QUOTE ]

Why do you try and make a compelling argument, then ruin it by using hands that are outside of villain's hand range? You may very well be right, but then ruin your arguments by putting in false info.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
raise the flop to $11 call a rr shove, call the turn, fold the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly I'm a forum donk. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]
If the hand goes like the following, I play it your way.

Hero dealt:6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 folds, hero bets $1, button calls, SB calls, BB (villain) raises to $3.50, hero calls, 2 standard "Ed Miller bad folds" (these games are great).

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (pot: $9)
Villain bets $4, Hero raises to $12...etc, etc.

I think the argument made above that even fish know the baluga theorem unconsciously has a lot of merit with the better line is for me to not call here. Certainly you could argue that while the 36 other **good** cards for me really aren't that great because the 3s, 5s, 8s, 10s, 7s need to be potentially discounted due to their ability to potentially scare off a tighty on the turn.

Bah: That flop bet looked so much like AA or KK.

[Shaqalicious]

wtf? there's no argument for not raising that flop. you called his raise and flop two pair. what were you hoping to do, flop a straight? put money in the pot immediately. he'll fold any pocket pair, and you most definitely want him to put money in with AK/AQ when he is behind. such a basic concept, i don't know why you are being so obstinate about it. lol @ narrowing villain's range to 1 hand

[Brian O'Nolan]

This hand makes baby Jesus cry. Pretty much everything that should be said has already been said but you don't seem to get it. How can you think of treating villain's flop bets of $1.90 and $4 so differently when you haven't seen him play a hand? This is uNL and you seem to have a bad case of FPS... play straightforward and fire away.

[AceLuby]

Calling w/ a flopped bottom 2 is very very -ev, you need to raise and raise big.