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#21
03-23-2007, 02:05 PM
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Re: AKs, all streets.
[ QUOTE ]
Bump^^^^^^^^ I played AK into a 3 bet 2 weeks ago at a live game. I made quad aces against a guys aces full of kings. I baited him into losing his stack and showed a clear profit. This is of course a rarity of winners, but I can't see letting AK go to a small reraise. You also need to figure straight possiblities into the mix. By 3 betting, the villain reveals more about his hand and is closer to playing his hand more face up than we are. If we narrow the villain down to a tight range, we should be able to take any 2 cards into them and show a profit. Remember that 30% of this game is math, the rest is mostly psychology. (I like your point, I just felt the need to argue the other side.) [/ QUOTE ] Cause we are always going to make quad Aces [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] Seriously though you are right about it being possible to play this in a live game. 
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#22
03-23-2007, 02:12 PM
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Re: AKs, all streets.
[ QUOTE ]
Seriously though you are right about it being possible to play this in a live game. [/ QUOTE ] Did you factor in the fact that there is a 10% rake at the casino vs a 5% rake online? Plus the bad beat drag, plus the big tip to the dealer for dealing us trips??? Wowie! Meh, I don't think I'll play AK again into a 3 bet for another 1000 hands.
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#23
03-23-2007, 02:14 PM
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Re: AKs, all streets.
I actually find that limping preflop with A/K is often more profitable since it disguises your hand and allows you to extract value from pocket pairs below A/K when an A or K flops (and lots of value from hands that you have dominated like A/Q when an A flops). I like playing A/K very aggressively preflop or very passively preflop but not somewhere in between - and raising and then calling a re-raise classifies as the "in between" for me. This is really just a general way of saying what's already been said regarding this specific hand.
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#24
03-23-2007, 02:17 PM
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Re: AKs, all streets.
[ QUOTE ]
You have AK and raise in MP to $4 your are 3 bet by the button who makes it $14. You call the extra $10 and the flop is HU $28 in the pot (not inclding the rake) Possible Scenerios 227 flop You check villain bets 2/3 pot and you fold (you lose $14) Same flop except your are in position. Villain makes a cont bet and you fold and lose $14 Same flop you are in position villain checks (almost never after he has shown aggresion preflop) has AK and you make a cont bet and you pick up a profit of $14 K27 flop You bet $21 and villain is holding AA or KK. You are losing a ton here if not your entire stack. A27 flop You bet $21 and villain is holding AA. You are losing a ton here if not your entire stack. A27 flop You bet $21 and villain is holding 1010-KK Villain may call your bet or he may fold but almost no one is calling a turn bet which should be about $50 unless they have your crushed. So you are making anywhere from $0-21 + the $14 preflop which = $0-$35 K27 flop same scenario as above, you are getting 1 street of value here $0-35 I dont think AK is woth playing against a 3-bet anymore [/ QUOTE ] There are a lot more scenarios that you didn't cover. It's basically impossible to do an exact EV calculation here, because there are too many flops and too many betting scenarios to consider. I'm also checking the flop a lot when I flop an ace, as shown in the original hand. The bottom line is that the better you are post-flop, the more you should call, because you're able to spot places to get thin value when you are ahead (such as this hand). I consider my post-flop edge fairly large against most of regulars who nit up FR. If you guys are folding AK to a 3-bet, are you also folding QQ under the same reasoning that it's easier to lose a big pot than win one? That would leave two hands that you play to a re-raise, AA and KK.
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#25
03-23-2007, 02:20 PM
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Re: AKs, all streets.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Seriously though you are right about it being possible to play this in a live game. [/ QUOTE ] Did you factor in the fact that there is a 10% rake at the casino vs a 5% rake online? Plus the bad beat drag, plus the big tip to the dealer for dealing us trips??? Wowie! Meh, I don't think I'll play AK again into a 3 bet for another 1000 hands. [/ QUOTE ] You are right given your situation, I was just pointing out that if you can read your opponent well you can play alot more profitably for value. Take a home game for instance where you are clearly better than the other players and can read them well. But of course if you are paying out like you say where you play you have a lot to make up.
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#26
03-23-2007, 02:24 PM
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Re: AKs, all streets.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You have AK and raise in MP to $4 your are 3 bet by the button who makes it $14. You call the extra $10 and the flop is HU $28 in the pot (not inclding the rake) Possible Scenerios 227 flop You check villain bets 2/3 pot and you fold (you lose $14) Same flop except your are in position. Villain makes a cont bet and you fold and lose $14 Same flop you are in position villain checks (almost never after he has shown aggresion preflop) has AK and you make a cont bet and you pick up a profit of $14 K27 flop You bet $21 and villain is holding AA or KK. You are losing a ton here if not your entire stack. A27 flop You bet $21 and villain is holding AA. You are losing a ton here if not your entire stack. A27 flop You bet $21 and villain is holding 1010-KK Villain may call your bet or he may fold but almost no one is calling a turn bet which should be about $50 unless they have your crushed. So you are making anywhere from $0-21 + the $14 preflop which = $0-$35 K27 flop same scenario as above, you are getting 1 street of value here $0-35 I dont think AK is woth playing against a 3-bet anymore [/ QUOTE ] There are a lot more scenarios that you didn't cover. It's basically impossible to do an exact EV calculation here, because there are too many flops and too many betting scenarios to consider. I'm also checking the flop a lot when I flop an ace, as shown in the original hand. [/ QUOTE ] At least he put the effort into the math and it doesn't need to be exact. Don't knock it if you don't do any yourself to counter his [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img] [ QUOTE ] The bottom line is that the better you are post-flop, the more you should call, because you're able to spot places to get thin value when you are ahead (such as this hand). I consider my post-flop edge fairly large against most of regulars who nit up FR. If you guys are folding AK to a 3-bet, are you also folding QQ under the same reasoning that it's easier to lose a big pot than win one? That would leave two hands that you play to a re-raise, AA and KK. [/ QUOTE ] Against a 20/11 multitabler on stars? Yeah those two hands sound good without a better read on him.
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#27
03-23-2007, 02:31 PM
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Re: AKs, all streets.
[ QUOTE ]
Against a 20/11 multitabler on stars? Yeah those two hands sound good without a better read on him. [/ QUOTE ] He's the middle guy. The re-raiser is unknown. And I'm still not folding AK to a 3-bet without a read that I'm facing a nit who never 3-bets less than AK. Call me crazy, but I like to play poker.
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#28
03-23-2007, 02:58 PM
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Re: AKs, all streets.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Against a 20/11 multitabler on stars? Yeah those two hands sound good without a better read on him. [/ QUOTE ] He's the middle guy. The re-raiser is unknown. And I'm still not folding AK to a 3-bet without a read that I'm facing a nit who never 3-bets less than AK. Call me crazy, but I like to play poker. [/ QUOTE ] You are right, I misread and thought he was the 3bet guy. However, he does present another problem in that you can't guarentee you will be HU against the 3-better. This is similar to O8B where you have a nut low in a three way pot and there is a raise and reraise in front of you. You know at best you are getting 1/2 the pot and maybe even only a 1/4 so you can't call even with the nut low. Here if he calls with AK he screws you even more since the times you do beat the 3bet Villian you only win 1/2 the pot. I like to play poker to, but I like to start out with the best hand or at least get good implied odds to call.
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#29
03-23-2007, 03:47 PM
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Re: AKs, all streets.
SABR
Your call preflop is perfectly fine. But I really don't like the check on the flop after the SB checked to you especially with your AK. It's rarely he has AAA now and is trying to slowplay a monster. But if he did in fact have it, you can find out easily by betting on the flop. Your check on the flop can lead you to a lot of vulnerable situations. For example: If I were that player and lets say I had KK (with one spade), and the spade hit the turn. I would've raised you had you bet on the turn. And my reasoning for this raise, is because I really believe you should've bet that A on the flop. However, given the player - he obviously did not do that - or perhaps did not think of it that way. By your check on the flop, I believe I can probably move you off of weak A, and if i can't, I have a flush draw to back me up. Betting that flop, although the line is a little weird by sb, is still the safest bet to protect yourself of tough decisions. Information is needed... Sb is very likely afraid of that A, and that's why he checked. If I had big PP and 2 people called my reraise from the sb, I am putting one of them on at least AK.
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#30
03-25-2007, 03:39 AM
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Re: AKs, all streets.
I think the rake argument is interesting, but to my mind a bit of a red herring.
Our EV from our hands is dynamic. For example, there is another post here where QQ is a clear fold pre flop to a reraise - the guy is 1%PFR and not deep enough to get set odds. This fellow has less EV from aces, than probably you or I. If you never call, or raise, a 3 bet with AK, you are becoming very predictable to stronger players, who will read you for a high pocket pair, and adjust accordingly. I suspect the negative EV impact on your Aces and Kings will more than offset your AK saving. Rake is a pain in the ass, but I think it is misleading to let it affect your strategy versus other players. My view is that you decide if you can beat the rake through your skill edge, and once you have concluded you can, then play your cards with no reference to this variable. Had a look through my premium hands over 140k hands, where I played a decidedly nitty 16/7. It would be interesting to know other peoples mixes. I am sure lags, and those who are good in reraised preflop pots will be far superior. AA 4.26BB/H KK 2.38BB/H QQ 1.81BB/H AKs 1.29BB/H AKo 0.73BB/H Interesting debate.
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