A flop shove with JJ in a rr pot (400NL)

[Dan Bitel]

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AA, flush draws.

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Ya pretty much I probably don't even raise AA here.

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would you say this is what your opponent (a competant player) expects or not?

[jfish]

i think so. this is a pretty weird spot to bluff.

[Eagles]

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AA, flush draws.

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Ya pretty much I probably don't even raise AA here.

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would you say this is what your opponent (a competant player) expects or not?

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I couldn't say it depends on his read of you and a whole bunch of of other stuff.

[jk3a]

Dan,

I appreciate the thought process and multi-level thinking you put into this move, but I'm not really sure if that has caused you to make a -EV play here. I think it's very relevant that you are talking about your flop raising range here, but I think it's WAY MORE important to consider villain's CALLING range if you say you are doing this for value. Against all but the biggest idiots, your equity against his calling range is terrible.

[Dan Bitel]

OK, I thought this was semi-interesting, but I guess you guys didn't, so I might as well just go ahead and post results.

I know the "standard" line is to just call and then fold turn, but I prefer this line for a few reasons. 1) it means i never fold the best hand. 2) I protect my hand and 3) and most importantly, value.

The reason I kept asking people what their flop raising range is on this flop is that I'm sure thats exactly what is going through my opponents head when I raise. As others have already said, I can't really be raising many hands here for value.I guess mayyyybe I would calle preflop with 67s and then mayyybe raise this flop. But "I wouldn't" (at least in most players eyes) raise here with AK or even AA all that often. So basically I have to have air/spades here just about always. Now if this is true, whats the difference between villain calling an all in with KQ and with say 77 here? Except KQ having a bit more equity vs some draws, there shouldn't really be much difference at all.

So pushing JJ here does two things. 1) If i'm lucky enough for villain to be thinking on this level and to have teh balls, it's a pretty sweet value shove. 2) it merges my range so that I don't just have bluffs/monsters, which makes me WAY WAY more difficult to play against.

Anyway....maybe I just got lucky here. Villain called with AQ and my hand held up

[jfish]

we understand that it was a value-intended push. however, its bad precisely because very very few players think on high enough of a level for this to ever be profitable. any range that even includes worse hands for villain will almost certainly be weighted towards hands that beat you over worse pairs/AQ/whatever.

while it worked for you this time and you guys know where you are with each other, i think its def -ev.

[Dan Bitel]

jfish,

theres no way its -EV. Its just a matter of if theres a more +EV line to take

[dtan05]

agree with jfish, not too many people think at this level ESPECIALLY at 400NL. but i thought jfish quitted pokar?

[jfish]

quit playing, still like reading.

[BDaws]

If you don't mind me asking, why did you quit and what are you doing with your life now?