New mod locks Israel thread

[kyleb]

Can anyone chime in on why posting about Israel is not allowed in Politics? It's not in the stickies, so those should probably be updated if this is a rule.

[Mat Sklansky]

It is allowed.

[kyleb]

Oh, well, hmm. This post and others make it sound like it's not wanted. Never mind.

[Mat Sklansky]

There is some confusion surrounding this issue. Nonetheless, it was never intended by Mason that all conversation about Israel, including criticisms of Isreal, cease. He felt that Cyrus was cleverly spreading a message of hate as opposed to offering legitimate criticisms of policy.

That claim might be debatable , but it was directed at one poster. By no means should people feel that they can't talk about Israel in the politics forum. They can.

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]
There is some confusion surrounding this issue. Nonetheless, it was never intended by Mason that all conversation about Israel, including criticisms of Isreal, cease. He felt that Cyrus was cleverly spreading a message of hate as opposed to offering legitimate criticisms of policy.

That claim might be debatable , but it was directed at one poster. By no means should people feel that they can't talk about Israel in the politics forum. They can.

[/ QUOTE ]

Matt,

IMO, you’re certainly right about one thing in this post………

“There is some confusion surrounding the issue”.

For those of us who actually lived through that maelstrom, it is my belief that there are still some sharply divided opinions about what actually happened.

If we can attempt to discuss it in a reasonable and a rational manner, it is my opinion that the “issue” centers around two focal points: “Shades of Gray” and “Intention”.

“Shades of Gray” - Or, more specifically, the inability of numbers of people who were involved to differentiate the specific points that certain posters were making from an overall ‘position’ that one could easily assume was being taken.

To get directly to the point at hand…..It is my opinion that there are numbers of people who view ANY criticism of the policies of the State of Israel as being “anti-Semitic”. For whatever reasons (and there are many) those who take this position make an intellectual hyper-jump and respond as if those who point out what they think are “bad/wrong” positions or actions by the Israeli government as anti-Semitic.

FWIW, this kind of over-simplification of complex issues is not new. It goes on here in the USA all the time. Think about it…… “My country, right or wrong”…. “Love it or Leave it”.

Matt, it’s ‘flawed’ thinking; cause by intellectual laziness or blindness as the result of a person’s unwillingness to have their belief systems challenged.

ALL of us suffer from this condition. The key to getting past it is our own personal willingness to work at opening up our own mind. To get past it, we have to focus on being open-minded. We have to be willing to challenge our own deeply held beliefs. In a very frightening and complicated world, that is not an easy thing for most of us to do, as our beliefs most often serve as the only safe haven that separates us from the raging storms of the open sea.

On a personal level, given what I do for a living (I own and have managed an independent sales representative company for the past 30 years…..I’m the classic “middle man”), I’ve had to learn by experience how to resolve these issues. It’s been a lifelong journey, with some hard lessons learned, and I learn something new almost every day.

“Intention” – Or, the reasons behind our statements, thoughts or actions. We ALL do it. We all try to ‘look into/past’ what a person says or does to understand WHY they’ve said or done whatever. Regardless of how well we communicate, our language is imprecise, and for that reason most of us will most of the time automatically shift from the ‘literal’ mode into the ‘intention’ mode, in an attempt to more fully understand someone else’s POV or actions.

When we get into the 2nd ‘gear’ of intention, we’ve got to be very careful, as mistakes of interpretation are easily made.

Anyone who plays poker ‘live’ and is a +EV player will have a very good idea of what I’m talking about. It’s called ‘reading your opponent’ and one’s skill at doing so will have a significant impact on ones level of success at the tables.

It is my opinion that in regards to the subject at hand (anti-Israeli policies vs. anti-Semitic) that a number of people have made some very incorrect reads, and they need to go back to step one and re-think their positions.

Matt, there’s a difference between having the ‘right’ (or authority/power) to do something, and doing the ‘right’ thing.

There are many people today (and in the chronicles of history) who believe that the only true ‘rights’ emanate from the end of a gun barrel. I doubt that anything that I say will change their opinion, but I will say that if they study history closely that they will see that that kind of thinking is transient at best.

I have made a consistent case for the past two years that the Politics Forum is different from all other Forums on 2+2. My thoughts above are some of the basis upon which I have made that plea.

You, Ryan and Mason have a precious opportunity at your feet.

I sincerely hope that you do the right thing.

[Mat Sklansky]

I repeat. It was the intentions of one poster with which Mason took issue. Anybody else who wants to criticize Israel should go right ahead. If these threads get locked or deleted too quickly, we'll take a look.

Many people have claimed Mickey to be Cyrus. I haven't investigated, but if Mickey is Cyrus, he's lost the right to be here. He should stay away from the topic which got him booted, right or wrong, to begin with.

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]
I repeat. It was the intentions of one poster with which Mason took issue. Anybody else who wants to criticize Israel should go right ahead. If these threads get locked or deleted too quickly, we'll take a look.

Many people have claimed Mickey to be Cyrus. I haven't investigated, but if Mickey is Cyrus, he's lost the right to be here. He should stay away from the topic which got him booted, right or wrong, to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

<sigh>.......

Mat,

With all respect; repeating a position that may be ultimately flawed does not make it right.

[Phil153]

kyleb,

The thread below gives something of a history of what went on, including comments by Mason. It occurred during the time when Israel was cluster-bombing Lebanon's civilian areas, so feelings were high. Note the tone of the OP, Cyrus's comments and what Mason chooses to take issue with. The politics forum got closed around issues like these, and Cyrus banned.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...part=1&vc=1

I think it suffices to say that criticizing Israel's policies too deeply is not encouraged on this forum. And conspiracy theories regarding Israel's action are not definintely not encouraged. Note how calling Arabs aggressive bloodthirsty towelheads in this thread seems to go uncommented by Mason. It's all right for the "young readers" to think that about Arabs, however unfair the characterization might be. But to suggest that the Israeli response is callous and bloodthirsty, and that powerful Jews have little concern for non-Jewish life, is NOT ok.

Anyway, it's all fine with me. It's Mason's site, and he's been very permitting of (other) debate here. Since his posts imply that a continued and unflattering examination of Israel's agenda is not ok, I won't be posting about it. It's probably for the best anyway - these debates never end well.

edit: Oh and here's Mason's comments on the locking, where he echos Mat.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rue#Post6798575

[Mat Sklansky]

What's not right?

Are you saying the success or failure of the forum rests on one individual?

There's a notion that mason was trying to squelch speech critical of israel. i maintain that's not the case. We won't know unless it's tested.


Meanwhile, you're a guy, always respectful, wanting no moderation. Seeing how you can control yourself without force makes me that less sympathetic to those who won't be civil.

[Arnfinn Madsen]

[ QUOTE ]

There's a notion that mason was trying to squelch speech critical of israel. i maintain that's not the case. We won't know unless it's tested.

[/ QUOTE ]

The notion stems from all the hate inducing taking place with all sorts of sicko intentions, then suddenly when the pro-Israeli side started losing the debates, hate inducing was suddenly a problem. So his stated reasons lacked credibility, thus people question his real intentions. Anyway, I agree it starts to be unfruitful to discuss this much anymore, better to discuss current threads/posters.


[ QUOTE ]

Meanwhile, you're a guy, always respectful, wanting no moderation. Seeing how you can control yourself without force makes me that less sympathetic to those who won't be civil.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you have noticed that this discussion isn't about behaving towards other posters, in the thread here discussed the OP is completely civil towards other posters.