JJ is hard to play!

[lucky_mf]

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3-bet preflop.

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WHY?

FFS, I absolutely hate it when people on here say something like this with absolutely no reasoning behind it. It's very easy to give advice, and much harder to tell us all why it's good advice.

I am OOP facing a larger-than-usual raise from an unknown-ish player that I have just bet off a couple of hands. I am holding a medium strength hand with a player to act behind me. It is a hand I want to continue with, but a hand I cannot call a 3 bet with.

Now why do I want to reraise in this situation?

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FWIW - I agree with you. It doesn't seem like a good place to put a bunch of money in the pot before seeing a flop. Also - it might be very hard to back him off a paired overcard given that he's already folded a couple hands to you. All assuming he calls. If he folds and bb folds you would win a small pot (when a well played JJ might of won a big one).

I actually like the way you played the hand. I don't think I could bring myself to fold JJ in this situation to a typical-loose-aggro player - particularly because I think they would have come over the top of your flop raise. I also think that the turn card ruined any action you were likely to get on your hand. By pushing you might look enough like a bluff enough to get called by a smaller pair - when you otherwise would of gotten no further action. I also like it because it sets up for more river and turn pushes in larger sized pots (this is a profitable part of my game).

Lucky

[drewvy]

not a big fan..QQ/KK/AA is definately in villains range along with 66/44/33....only 6 other pp's left and 22 is made straight (unlikely around) and 55 is now staying...so for 88/99/TT we are going to push? Is the chance of folding QQ/KK/AA worth this bet? I don't think so...

[drewvy]

I'm with you here on calling oop against an unknown opponent. I think we often play JJ like it is QQ which is a big mistake IMO...Sometimes we need to think of JJ like TT/99 meaning we have showdown value and don't want to build a huge pot. By the way, with this reasoning(which it seems like you started with) we are now building a big pot and turning this hand into a bluff which really doesn't make sense to me unless you know your opponent better.

[dirtysanchez]

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dirtysanchez,

so you're saying that he is calling preflop in essence to induce a bluff out of a player who raises preflop and who will c-bet most of the time. yet we have no idea with his c-bet if we are ahead or behind and so a c/r is in order? hmmmm.....are you seeing any wholes in this logic?

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after seeing the flop the chances we are ahead are pretty high since a good part of his raising range whiffed here, so no.

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if our motive preflop is to keep the pot smaller while inducing bluffs out of worse holdings then c/r'ing here is probably the exact opposite of what we should be doing. c/c'ing fits this line of thinking which is what i said to do if he took this preflop line.

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it wasnt as much about the pot as it is the fact that a good sized 3-bet preflop is guaranteed action from a better hand and rarely gets action from a worse hand. calling down has its merits but i like raising this flop because we can get called by worse hands.

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also with JJ i think a large portion of your opponents raising hands here are of similiar value to ours and thus we shouldn't necessarily be afraid of folding out worse hands. AK/AQ/KQ all are raiing hands and we would not mind in the least folding thee out. and at these limits TT/99/88/maybe77 are all too often coming along for the 3bet ride anyways so we might as well get as much money in the pot now. don't confuse our holding with say KK/AA where we dominate everything and can afford the luxury of letting more hands catch up.

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given how much is in the pot and how much we have behind and the fact that we believe we have an edge over the villain i dont mind evaluating the flop and making decisions vs his whole pf range, although i think 3-betting here is fine too, i was just providing the reasoning for flat-calling.

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again though, i don't have a problem with either preflop line. it is postflop that he should stay consistant with his preflop decision since not enough information has been brought to light in defining his opponents hand in order to sway his actions postflop one way or the other.

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well im not a huge fan of turn play here. i think its basically a bluff and rarely gets called by a worse hand, although it may fold out some higher pairs. the main point of my post is that we arent flatcalling preflop because we think we are behind but because feltbelt feels like thats the most +EV line here, which is reasonable given the 6X open and history.

[carrotsnake]

This is as close to awful as you can play a hand. I don't even know if your bluffing, value betting, or just trying to throw chips into the middle like a monkey. Not 3 betting pre is fine, but WTF are you doing after that ? Do you put villian on ANY kind of range with his massive preflop raise or the fact that he bet into 2 people and then called a c/r or what ?