The Mrs. epdaws Files: Hand Three, Most Interesting Yet. (FT 100)

[grando]

teach your wife game selection

check the turn and let him push with JJ/TT/KQ

he'll have AA/KK quite often too though

[amoeba]

I like flop check a lot if AQ is near the bottom of your reraise range.

[epdaws]

[ QUOTE ]
yes I think they are much more likely to call a push than push themself with JJ-99.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] amoeba but I strongly disagree here. We've shown tremendous strength with an OOP preflop re-raise, a lead into a 3-way pot, and then a turn shove. I think 99-JJ calls about never, while those hands might be inclined to shove against some sort of perceived weakness. Check behind is obv most likely from those hands, but calling a shove is just not happening with any frequency.

[Casper05]

After the flop bet, c/c the turn AND river is best imo...putting him on a range of TT+ and AQ+ would be fairly standard I think.

I prob check the flop though. ~60/40 for me though

[Nick Royale]

I think he'll fold JJ/TT on this flop given that it's 3-ways and he has bad relative position. Which leaves AQs/AA-QQ/AsKs (occassionally KQs). Against these hands mrs has 20% equity. Throw in KQs undiscounted and she still don't have odds to call a push. Small changes in his range will make a huge differance in our equity though, so check/calling isn't that bad. Still, we don't know if villain will bet AsKs/KQs if we check so I think c/f is best.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
After the flop bet, c/c the turn AND river is best imo...putting him on a range of TT+ and AQ+ would be fairly standard I think.

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't need to worry about calling the river.

[amoeba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes I think they are much more likely to call a push than push themself with JJ-99.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] amoeba but I strongly disagree here. We've shown tremendous strength with an OOP preflop re-raise, a lead into a 3-way pot, and then a turn shove. I think 99-JJ calls about never, while those hands might be inclined to shove against some sort of perceived weakness. Check behind is obv most likely from those hands, but calling a shove is just not happening with any frequency.

[/ QUOTE ]

again, my commentary is probably tainted by how often I push the turn with less than AQ but consider this.

Lets assume that what you are saying is true, that villain is very unlikely to call with JJ-99 on the turn but that hes also unwilling to push himself.

so it goes check check.

now are you making the assumption that hes more likely to call a push on a non K, non A river? because certainly if you check the river again with AQ, hes not going to value bet you with JJ-99 if he thinks you have Ace high, so you have to push river.

so in other words, does the additional likelyhood of him calling your river push vs a turn push with jj-99 outweigh the disadvantage of you giving him a free card for his whole range.

[Casper05]

I know...Im saying I would check the river even if he checked behind on the turn.

[epdaws]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
yes I think they are much more likely to call a push than push themself with JJ-99.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] amoeba but I strongly disagree here. We've shown tremendous strength with an OOP preflop re-raise, a lead into a 3-way pot, and then a turn shove. I think 99-JJ calls about never, while those hands might be inclined to shove against some sort of perceived weakness. Check behind is obv most likely from those hands, but calling a shove is just not happening with any frequency.

[/ QUOTE ]

again, my commentary is probably tainted by how often I push the turn with less than AQ but consider this.

Lets assume that what you are saying is true, that villain is very unlikely to call with JJ-99 on the turn but that hes also unwilling to push himself.

so it goes check check.

now are you making the assumption that hes more likely to call a push on a non K, non A river? because certainly if you check the river again with AQ, hes not going to value bet you with JJ-99 if he thinks you have Ace high, so you have to push river.

so in other words, does the additional likelyhood of him calling your river push vs a turn push with jj-99 outweigh the disadvantage of you giving him a free card for his whole range.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just when I think you've gone nuts, you come back with an excellent rebuttal.

I'm guilty of assigning a pretty steadfast range to Villain here, and I told Mrs. epdaws that my preference was to c/f turn and if the turn went check/check then c/f the river. I could simply not think of a hand, save AsKs, that we were beating, and thought this might be a sneaky, trappy, Marjarine-ish AA or KK. QQ was a possibility as well.

Anyway, results, and I swear I am not making any part of this up:

They checked it down. Villain had Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Mrs. epdaws even showed me the subsequent chat in which she implored Villain, "WTF did you misclick?"

I told her it's always possible that the opponent (a multi-tabler) was tilting. A good lesson that anything is possible, I guess.

[amoeba]

"c/f turn and if the turn went check/check then c/f the river."

this is not a bad line if you feel villain is tight enough that the only hands calling your flop bet are hands that beat you and in my original post I said I'm fine with this and that you should decide between this and the push the turn line depending on image.