A morality post inspired by a response in another thread here

[Unknown Soldier]

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Well, it strikes me as the morals of the con artist and cheat

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true, I guess it's how for you go to say someone's a "sucker", some people aren't meant for games like poker and they know it. Putting pressure on them to play and them eventually giving in, does that make them a sucker? Or for them realising this and seeking someone's advice mid-game, then getting bad advice. Does this make them a sucker? I don't know.

[CaryDarling]

Sorry, but millions of people travel to play in casinos every year with absolutely no chance of winning...there is nobody at the door warning them.
Life is about choices, and this is just another one. Whatever someone's reasoning for gambling, or playig poker, it is not for me to decide.
But part of those choices that those people could be making include learning more about the games they wish to play.

These people are here on vacation, and entertainment, I am trying to make a living...and part of that entertainment is trying to bust the local grinders. So who am I to stand in their way.

[SplawnDarts]

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Well, it strikes me as the morals of the con artist and cheat

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true, I guess it's how for you go to say someone's a "sucker", some people aren't meant for games like poker and they know it. Putting pressure on them to play and them eventually giving in, does that make them a sucker? Or for them realising this and seeking someone's advice mid-game, then getting bad advice. Does this make them a sucker? I don't know.

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All I can say is that I know what my personal moral choices in this vein are: I will not coerce someone to play a game they don't want to play for money unless it's part of a mixed-game negotiation. I will not lie to a person who asks me my opinion of their play. I will not, however, volunteer that opinion unless it appears that someone is trashing their life by playing. I will not cheat or shoot an angle. I will not hustle via sandbagging.

However, I no longer play for a living, and have held different opinions in the past when I did.

[Unknown Soldier]

interesting, I think I am the same, howver I have never played for a living.

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I will not, however, volunteer that opinion unless it appears that someone is trashing their life by playing.

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I wouldn't do this, I wouldn't think that it is any of my business.

[Ben K]

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I don't think what tomek322 did was bad, I didn't when I made the post (although I know it sounds like I did!), but I was curious of other peoples opinions, it also reminded me of what I did about a week ago to my friend. Also, I don't think [ QUOTE ]
What about if tomek322 had said "no you are a very good player, carry on"


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would any of you ever hustle someone? Say in a game of pool (if you are any good! If not, choose another sport) Do the ol' pretend to be playing bad, pressure them to play for realy money. Even though they are reluctant to. Then when the money is wagered beat them. That's just one example. Emotions about this player aside.

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I think telling someone they're good when they aren't is fine during the game. I think some people mistake breaks in the game as non-game time (if that makes sense). I think that the game starts when you buy-in and doesn't finish until you cash out. It's like when Linford Christie used to warm up for the 100m sprint in other people's lanes. They weren't racing at that point but they'd stepped out on to the track and anything legal goes until they cross the finish line. I also think that many people keep their game head on when they post on 2+2 (something which may be worth a post on it's own?). I get the feeling sometimes when reading reponses to posts that some people are deliberately focusing on certain limited aspects of the hand in an almost (but easily mistaken as misreading the post) deliberately misleading way. Although clearly there could be a number of other reasons than them trying to play the whole forum.

I've hustled at pool. I spent the whole of my first term at uni telling my mates I was rubbish and playing adequately. Then at the end of term I asked to double the stakes and after winning a few games told them I was actually very good and then won 20 (or something equally ridiculous) odd games on the trot. It was good natured though and I did buy the beer for the night.

As for hustling strangers, I haven't tried it but then I'm very bad at talking to people I don't know anyway. I have had several people try to hustle me but I've won them all and in everytime I can remember (it was a few years back) I think I actually warned them before accepting!

Anyway, during a game, telling someone they are good is the same as slowplaying. In both you're giving them one impression when in fact it's false. Away from the game just be nice.

[SplawnDarts]

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I will not, however, volunteer that opinion unless it appears that someone is trashing their life by playing.

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I wouldn't do this, I wouldn't think that it is any of my business.

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I think it's a general principle of pretty much all respectable moral systems that the wellbeing of your fellow human being IS your business, at least to a certain extent.

[Ben K]

Splawndarts you have a very good point. It's just that once at the poker table, it's a fairly widely considered view that it's everyman for himself (except cheats o'course). At the table you simply don't know people well enough to judge whether busting them on a particular hand will cost them jail or divorce or whatever. Even if they tell you it's the case, your natural bs detector pings and you have huge doubts.

I know we're trying to read people at the table but deciding someone shouldn't play because it's ruining their life after knowing them for a mere hour is, well, cringeworthy in my mind. It'd be embarassingly wrong in overwhelming majority of cases and in the rest just plain ignored.

[SplawnDarts]

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Splawndarts you have a very good point. It's just that once at the poker table, it's a fairly widely considered view that it's everyman for himself (except cheats o'course). At the table you simply don't know people well enough to judge whether busting them on a particular hand will cost them jail or divorce or whatever. Even if they tell you it's the case, your natural bs detector pings and you have huge doubts.

I know we're trying to read people at the table but deciding someone shouldn't play because it's ruining their life after knowing them for a mere hour is, well, cringeworthy in my mind. It'd be embarassingly wrong in overwhelming majority of cases and in the rest just plain ignored.

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Under normal circumstances I don't think anything that could happen in one sitting would make me want to talk to them (ie. I would rarely do what Treetop did). I'm mostly speaking about people I know better, or friends.

I did un-invite a compulsive gambler from my home game once, though, and he later thanked me for it when he got help. I think I did the right thing even though I cost myself and a few players some money by doing so.

[Ben K]

Ah, I see we're talking about different groups of people. Me - randoms, you - regulars/friends. Then yeah, I agree, you do have cause (and the info) to make a comment, especially when it's your game. Good work with helping that guy.