what to do on the river? Casino AZ 20/40

[brick]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why do you want to fold 2-6 outers? People will think they are value betting or payoff your bets a ton here with a worse hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

OP said he felt 3 bettor had a big hand. My point is for those situations on the river and getting there by ch/c'ing.

If they keep betting when you're ch/c'ing, I think you're way more likely to be behind if they put that last bet in. So the river is way more likely to be -EV for that line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you are getting at by saying the river bet will more likely be -EV. This makes sense to me on the surface... at least that the river bet will usally go in when we are losing. (Sklansky said this in one of his books). But if the river were actaully -EV to call then we would just fold.

If opponents are not bluffing the river often enough then I see nothing wrong with calling the turn and the check- folding the river.

Edit to add:
I don't mind the check-raise bet line but, do you simply fold to 3-bet on the flop?

[benwood]

Lunger took the words out of my mouth.If you don't try to find out where you are early on,you find yourself in a guessing game on the river.If you donk him on the flop,I believe that you will get a better handle on what's going on.

[Nate.]

[ QUOTE ]
ok game at casino AZ. I was hoping for a game like the commerce, but I had no such luck. Two loose spots are making the game good.

I have been playing very tight. I raise in EP with AJo, Next to act 3-bets and loose spot calls in the SB. My read is the 3 bettor has a good hand. I think he views me as tight. Who know what SB has.


Flop As Kh 6c

check, check, 3-bettor bets, we both call.

Turn: 3h
check, check, bet, fold, I call.

River: Qs

a) check fold
b) check call
c) bet fold

[/ QUOTE ]

Who who who who who? CAZ is a funny place. I'd take each of these lines against some of the regulars. (I don't, of course, see any need to get into actual player-specific conversation here.)

I think the best general line these days is, barely, check-calling every street, followed closely by folding the turn. And of course it doesn't take much straightforwardness for folding the turn to be correct, and if you have not my image but a tight one then defaulting to a fold might be better.

If you made it this far without making a mistake, check-call. (That is, check-fold against plenty of people, but if you do, remember to fold the turn next time.)

--Nate

[SA125]

[ QUOTE ]
If opponents are not bluffing the river often enough then I see nothing wrong with calling the turn and the check- folding the river.

Edit to add:
I don't mind the check-raise bet line but, do you simply fold to 3-bet on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you can fold the river, then I think ch/c'ing isn't that bad a play.

I've seen few players who would 3 bet pf and then 3 bet an AK6r flop with a hand like QQ or AT. Maybe AJ, but I wouldn't expect it. Unless villain was the rare tough/tricky type who would, I fold to a 3 bet.

[ssmallz]

How well do you know this guy? If he's your typical (read: sane) poker player bet folding is the way to go. His 3 betting range include hands like Ax down to maybe ATs and PPs down to 99 if we want to be generous. You might be able to get a crying call out of JJ, TT, 99 or AT but these hands might not bet if checked to. If you think he's the type of guy who will bluff raise or raise the river w/a worse hand, just check call and prey.

[tessarji]

Hi brick,

Good playing with you, I was the guy who took down this pot.

You got put in a tough spot here, but I believe check-calling to the river is the best against my range, which is probably approximated by [AA-99,AQs+,AK].

On the flop:

1 way AA
3 ways KK, JJ
6 ways QQ, TT, 99
6 ways AK
2 ways AQs

12-21 by distrbution. Probably a close calldown.

Also I am fond of making moves on tight, good players who raise early by three betting with suited connectors about 20% of the time (usually in late position). This is mostly a metagame ploy, because in my usual game it gets me tons of action from LAGs who realize I don't need an incredible hand to make a big pot preflop.

I'll keep firing with those hands all the way, so if you realized this, you should definitely go to showdown, and donk-betting the river is also a bad idea.

[brick]

Nice hand. If you bluff raised the river then good read.
I did butcher the river here. Bet-fold is a terrible, terrible line because you won't pay off with much that I'm ahead of. (save maybe a weak suited A that you decided to get fancy with)

I've been trying to bet-fold more because I have not used this play enough in the past, but this was a terrible time for it.

[tessarji]

I'm not above a bluff raise - I actually pulled off one that night at the same table, which I might post.

This time though, I had AK.