Making the move to cash games - MTTer needs advice

[Ansky]

Play 100bb immediatly. You will be stuck in a donkament rutt of useless pushbotting [censored] that doesnt apply to cashgames if you don't expand to deeper stacks. Another thing, don't be a pussy and leave the table if you get deep. Play deep as much as you can because that is when you really learn to play.

Play 6 max, full ring is pretty [censored] lame.

And, getting a coach wouldn't be a bad idea. Maybe I'll finally get into coaching...

oh and i went from 100% mtt to like 85% cash, and have not looked back.

[LearnedfromTV]

6max has better good players and worse bad players, which is a function of the fact that you have to make more decisions and thinner decisions.

worse bad players + more decisions = more profit for the best players.

[BadgerPro]

Yeah, that sounds a little contradictory but it's really not.

You'll find most people here on 2+2 prefer the 6max games. The reason they prefer them is because there are more fish compared to the full ring games.

Also, at 6max you have to be able to play more hands and being able to hand read and play post flop becomes even more important. Therefore the better players can exploit bad players mistakes more.

At fullring if you play a solid TAG game you're pretty tough to beat, IMO. Full ring allows players to stay away from mediocre spots and doesn't force them to play more hands. You'll find many people at full ring just sit back and look to hit sets or flop big hands and get paid off by the few bad players who can't get away from top pair.

At 6max you can't do that since you'll get torn apart. It forces everybody to play more medicore spots and the better player is gonna have a much larger edge there as most of the bad players either get too committed to their hands and will call down with any piece or play way too tight and look to hit a monster before committing any chips. All you have to do is figure out whether somebody plays too tight or too loose and then exploit them (obv a little more complicated but that's my general approach).


To sum up the full ring games are beatable but I feel like they allow players who aren't that good to beat them by just playing a solid TAG game. This causes the games to be full of players who are just grinding it out and playing ABC poker. Many of these players can't play mediocre spots well but they don't need to to be a winning player (albeit a small winning player but still winning, which adds up when they 8-12 table).

Hope this helps, I suck at posting and ramble a lot. If I said something that sounds weird just ask again and I'll try to clear up what I meant.

[BadgerPro]

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6max has better good players and worse bad players, which is a function of the fact that you have to make more decisions and thinner decisions.

worse bad players + more decisions = more profit for the best players.

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I spent like 30min trying to write out my post and LFTV summed it up pretty well right here in 2 sentences. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] This is why I play more instead of trying to post.

[DonT77]

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6max has better good players and worse bad players, which is a function of the fact that you have to make more decisions and thinner decisions.

worse bad players + more decisions = more profit for the best players.

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I spent like 30min trying to write out my post and LFTV summed it up pretty well right here in 2 sentences. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] This is why I play more instead of trying to post.

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Well, I think you both did a great job and there are some really good posts in here to get me started down the right path. Also, I knew I could get the straight [censored] from Ansky if he posted a reply in this thread. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[DVO]

Don

Be ready for a huge adjustment. cash games are much harder imho. Less dead money than tourneys for sure.

You will endure frustrating times, like when you finally flop AA3 holding AK against a 'super lag', and when the dust settles he has 33 and stacks you for 2 buy-ins. (Take note of who splashes around in small and medium pots but always has the goods when the big $$ goes in. These guys are dangerous,don't be fooled by them.)

You have to make laydowns that would be suicidal in a tourney, remember that too.

Also Sklansky/Miller's new NL book has a lot of good advice in it. well worth $29.

I speak from first hand knowledge, I'm one of those tourney donks who has given up a chunk (30%) of his tourney winnings learning to play these cash games. It's gonna take awhile to get comfortable.


also the diff between $2/4 and 3/6 is often pretty big. GL.

[BadgerPro]

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Also Sklansky/Miller's new NL book has a lot of good advice in it. well worth $29.

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Less than one day's worth of FPPs multitalbing. I have the book but haven't read it... along with many other books. (Just having them makes me a better player right?)

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also the diff between $2/4 and 3/6 is often pretty big. GL.

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I'd actually say the jump from $1/2 to $2/4 is the toughest. I'd say this becuase my winrate took the biggest hit from this jump. I went from a 10BB/100 player to a 4BB/100 player, which while still a great rate it's just hard to adjust to mentally. I dabbled some in $3/6 and while I probably haven't played enough to accuratly say if the jump is harder it seemed to be the same as $2/4 in the little I played.

It was mentioned earlier but since your BR is large enough to play bigger games and you are just dabbling at lower stakes to learn I would recommend playing the best game you can find as you get comfortable in cash games.

If you find a few great $3/6 games, play them. If there aren't any good $3/6 or $2/4 games, play $1/2. This is actually one of my biggest leaks/problems. I play the highest game I'm rolled for instead of playing the highest AND most profitable game I'm rolled for. I think the mental, "I'm a $x/x player and feel stupid playing at lower stakes." attitude is something I'm working on getting around now.

[DonT77]

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Also Sklansky/Miller's new NL book has a lot of good advice in it. well worth $29.

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I'm half way through the Sklansky/Miller book and I think it's definitely one of the better ones I've read. It actually seems to be like a 'best of the xxNL/xTT threads' compilation - and coincidentally, I did find one page in that book that is almost verbatim the same as a post I made regarding WA/WB situations. [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

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It was mentioned earlier but since your BR is large enough to play bigger games and you are just dabbling at lower stakes to learn I would recommend playing the best game you can find as you get comfortable in cash games.

If you find a few great $3/6 games, play them. If there aren't any good $3/6 or $2/4 games, play $1/2. This is actually one of my biggest leaks/problems. I play the highest game I'm rolled for instead of playing the highest AND most profitable game I'm rolled for. I think the mental, "I'm a $x/x player and feel stupid playing at lower stakes." attitude is something I'm working on getting around now.

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Well, fortunately for me, that is a problem I've never had. I still play $3 & $5 Rebuys because I think it's the most +EV place (percentage-wise) that a NLHE player can put their money and they don't distract me from playing my regular games. During the MTT challenge I played lots of $5 MTTs and a lot of $10 buy-ins in addition to the cheaper rebuys. I never consider any games 'below me' because I feel that most people are trying to play their best (I know I was when I was starting out) and we all have different skills, experiences, moments of brilliance, and moments of bone-headedness. I also look at the lower buy-in MTTs as being a component in a good gambling portfolio similar to bonds or money markets in an investment portfolio.

Finding a 'good game' or leaving a 'bad game' will be tough for me to do at first until I learn who the fish are and who to avoid, but obviously game selection is an important element in playing ring games successfully.

As far as what level to play - I picked 200NL as a starting point b/c $200 is an amount that I'm psychologically comfortable in losing (since I play a lot of $200 MTTs) and b/c I've heard that 400NL and 600NL are tougher games - and I never want to gamble even small amounts when I think I might be taking the worst of it.

That last sentence "I never want to gamble even small amounts when I think I might be taking the worst of it" (not talking about a hand but rather a session) is a core belief to me as a player - don't play in tough games, don't play 'under the influence', don't play when sick / overly tired / disturbed, etc.

IMO 'Knowing when to walk away and knowing when to run' is almost as important as Bank Roll Management (and could be considered a key component to BRM) when it comes to overall success as a long-term poker player / gambler.

[A_PLUS]

I thought of a reason why 6-max is better than full ring for good players, while watching football the other day.

You always hear announcers or coaches talking about winning the time of possession battle, and keeping great offenses off the field. I thought, at first that it was just stupid announcers, being stupid. Then I thought about it. You have a better chance to hold Peyton Manning to 14 pts is 6 possessions than you do holding him to 28 points in 12 possessions. Since blinds come around much quicker, playing <10% of your hands just wont do it at 6-max (also, b/c it is easier to notice the rock with only 4-5 other players). So, like others said, a winning player must play more hands, more hands = a bigger and more consistent edge for the better players.

[davidross]

Hey Don,

I predict you will have no problem beating the 200 NL games. I switched to them in September moving over from Limit games. I found the full table games easier to beat, but because you played fewer hands you couldn't make as much money. I played about 3 weeks of full table and then moved to 6 max. It took me about 8 weeks to feel like I would win most of my sessions. I played very much like my tournament game, tight and conservative and I didn't get stacked often, and I didn't stack anyone often. I had some sessions with Tommy Angelo (who is the perfect coach for me) and started to open my game up. Now for the last month I'm running real well in both tournaments and cash games. It may be coincidence but my tournament results have really improved and like you my bankroll is way beyond 200 NL but I haven't made the move up yet.I'm going to wait until after the PCA to try the higher limits. I want my confidence High in the Bahamas.

I love splitting time between the tournies and cash games.I think of the cashgames as my work and the tournies as my pleasure. I've often thought of just playing tournies but I'm not sure I could stand it mentally, I'm always so down after busting out, even if it's a 2nd place. I also seem to play progressively worse the more tournies I play.

I'm glad I won't be seeing you at the tables (I'm still at PArty) but I do hope to see you again some time. GL.