Can Not Ready Argue Against This?

[David Sklansky]

Forget the content of your post. The fact that you weren't appalled by my method of exposition and replied in kind is sort of a good thing. Will I ever get an admission from you that if nothing else, this forum has helped you tighten up your thoughts on these issues?

[KUJustin]

David, I understand where you're coming from even though I think you're wrong. It simply isn't logical to expect that those who live an "exemplary" life go to heaven.

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For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10

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Given that context I don't see how the good can outweigh the bad. You're right that Christians should desire to see as many people as possible in heaven, this is why I don't get people who claim to be Christians but balk at the idea of talking to others about faith.

Ray, are your stances supported by something or is it just an idea you came up with that sounds good and fits your logic in terms of how things should be? How do you respond to this parable?

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"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?' Matthew 20:1-15

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[RayBornert]

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every human past present and future will encounter the centrifuge - it is the ultimate objective standard capable of sorting at the quantum level.


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Who's in charge of the centrifuge or who made it?

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this answer depends on who you talk to. the concept of a scientific
and objective centrifuge is valid and is independent of any answer to this question.

i ascribe the existence of the centrifuge and it's design and purpose to the god i define.

my personal view is that the centrifuge is a neutral tool. it is what it is. my view is that both god and those whose memories and experiences are sorted by the centrifuge see it as a valuable thing - much the same way that both me and my wife think it's valuable for me to take a shower after i run for a mile on a hot summer day so as to sort me from my stink.

another analogy might be the dennis the menace scenario:
you're 5 years old and you go outside to play and roll in the grass and sweat and stink and contact dog poo; upon returning to the house in the evening there is no such thing as avoiding a mother and a bath.

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What does the centrifuge do with acts that are outwardly good but done for evil motives?

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it sorts the memories and experiences of the individual into value and waste at a granularity beyond what we might be able to comprehend.

read this new testament quote:
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Hbr/Hbr004.html#12

and consider that your god might have centrifuge capability beyond what you currently imagine.

edit: NR you should re-read every new-testament instance of jesus talking harshly; but imagine that he fully understands the centrifuge but he's talking to people with a pass/fail understanding of justice.


ray

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Ok so let me try to understand this by translating it into everyday spoken english.

The centrifuge is a place where all of our memories are basically seperated into, good or acceptable ones and evil or unacceptable ones according to the judgement of GOD. The reason for such a place is because GOD cannot tolerate the mear existance, thought, or precence of evil in his Kingdom.

Is this the general idea without all the unneeded crap that you guys feel the need to add.

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take everything you just said (in a very subjective highly charged emotive manner) and imagine complete and total objectivity;

imagine that the subject is suddenly and intensely and objectively aware of the difference between value and waste (i.e. they are in complete agreement); imagine that they want access to the centrifuge everybit as much as you or i would want access to a shower if we stunk badly.

imagine that a criminal wants their shame memory erased
imagine that the victim wants their pain memory erased
(imagine that everyone has been both victim and criminal)

both memory experiences are waste products.

the common mistake is to assume that god wants to erase something you don't. if the moment is entirely objective, both you and god will be in 100% agreement.

the rest of the discussion in this life will be our feeble attempts to understand what survives the centrifuge as pure value and what gets erased.

ray

[NotReady]

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Will I ever get an admission from you that if nothing else, this forum has helped you tighten up your thoughts on these issues?


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Steel sharpens steel, no question.

[surftheiop]

DS were you trying to make an analogy to the parable of the sower or it just happen that way ?

[David Sklansky]

"It simply isn't logical to expect that those who live an "exemplary" life go to heaven."

Surely at the very least you meant to say "It simply isn't logical GIVEN THE NEW TESTAMENT's WORDS to expect that those who live an "exemplary" life go to heaven." If not you sound like a lunatic.

Meanwhile how does your statement jibe with the belief of all those Jews, who even you, I think, agree, put a higher than average premium on being logical?

[NotReady]

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If waste=100% and all waste is erased, what's left? What are we if not our memories? If someone's memory is completely erased, isn't he a completely different person?


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There's another problem, maybe even greater that the above. If you just wipe someone's memory, why won't he simply continue doing the same thing since at heart he hasn't changed?

[RayBornert]

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If waste=100% and all waste is erased, what's left? What are we if not our memories? If someone's memory is completely erased, isn't he a completely different person?


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There's another problem, maybe even greater that the above. If you just wipe someone's memory, why won't he simply continue doing the same thing since at heart he hasn't changed?

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take this statement back and first consider the new environment in which the sorted arrive after exiting the centrifuge.

if you want to put them in a heaven then speak from that context.

if you want to put them back down on earth (reincarnation) then speak from that context.

ray

[RayBornert]

[ QUOTE ]
David, I understand where you're coming from even though I think you're wrong. It simply isn't logical to expect that those who live an "exemplary" life go to heaven.

[ QUOTE ]
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10

[/ QUOTE ]

Given that context I don't see how the good can outweigh the bad. You're right that Christians should desire to see as many people as possible in heaven, this is why I don't get people who claim to be Christians but balk at the idea of talking to others about faith.

Ray, are your stances supported by something or is it just an idea you came up with that sounds good and fits your logic in terms of how things should be? How do you respond to this parable?

[ QUOTE ]
"For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard. He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

"About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. He told them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.' So they went.

"He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing. About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, 'Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?'

" 'Because no one has hired us,' they answered.
"He said to them, 'You also go and work in my vineyard.'

"When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, 'Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.'

"The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius. So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 'These men who were hired last worked only one hour,' they said, 'and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.'

"But he answered one of them, 'Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn't you agree to work for a denarius? Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you. Don't I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?' Matthew 20:1-15

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einstein started with a simple question:
"what if the velocity of light is constant?"
and then considered what that would imply in nature.

i'm simply engaging in a thought experiment and measuring that against reason and scripture:
"what if god uses a centrifuge?"
"what if forgive means erase?"

*****
i'm not sure what you want me to say about the parable. why don't you interpret first and i'll react your ideas.

ray

[NotReady]

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take this statement back and first consider the new environment in which the sorted arrive after exiting the centrifuge.


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Isn't that the question? Can they enter heaven unchanged even though their memories are wiped?