You Should Open Limp.........(Long)

[RichC.]

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What's my image? Who are my opponents? How long have I been at the table? What are the stack sizes?

Come on......If poker was just about starting hands and betting patterns based on them, we wouldn't be here.....

It hurts to read this generic stuff. It just begs for some higher level thinking.

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So glad you are ripping on everyone. He asked a general question. If you want deeper levels of thought, go to MSNL or HSNL.


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Just curious, what are most of you guys doing with JQo and KQo from EP?

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Typically, i just fold them in FR and raise in 6max, but I will raise them if the table conditions are right.

[RAHZero]

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I open limp small pocket pairs if I feel there's a very large chance I'll be called by at least two players that don't like to fold. I feel it's a waste to raise 22 if I'm going to check-fold nearly every time I don't flop a
set.

Other than that, I don't open limp at all.

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That's the second time I'm seen stuff like this in this thread from people that I consider solid players, and it's dead wrong. So what if most of the time you're folding post-flop after raising your small PP preflop? The profits you make when you flop a set and stack your unsuspecting opponents more than outweighs your losses. Stacking someone with a set in an unraised pot with a low PP is extremely difficult. Basically, if all the money goes in, your opponent needs top two pair, a higher set or better.

Let's say you raise 44 UTG+1 to $2 in NL 50 6-max and get a caller from the button and the BB. Flop comes K96 rainbow. Ok, you check (unless both opponents fold to c-bets often) and lose $2. That happens 50 out of 100 times (that's being extremely conservative, my guess is the total # of times I get two or more callers is less than 50%). Total loss of $100. Some other times, you get 1 opponent, c-bet the flop when you miss, and take it down. That happens 25 out of 100 times. Total gain of $50. Some other times, you get 1 opponent, c-bet when you miss and he calls, so you give up. That happens 12 out of 100 times. Total loss of $48. 13 times out of 100 (approximately), you'll hit your set. Let's say 7 times you don't get paid off, and take down the pot. That means the 6 times you get paid off, you have to make an average of $14 ($100 - $50 + $48 - $14 = $84 / 6 = $14) to break even. In practice, you'll average a much greater profit than that when you hit your set, especially if there are multiple callers, since each additional caller means another person who could have hit the flop. If you win stacks just twice, you're already in the green. And this is using very conservative estimates. You'll likely take down the pot much more than 25% of the time with a c-bet, and your c-bets against one opponent (assuming you have a TAG image) are likely to be very successful % wise.

Raising with a small PP and getting two callers isn't a bad thing, it's a very profitable situation, even if you only profit from it a small percentage of the time. Also, when you open limp these hands, your more-aware opponents will have a good idea of what you have when you start betting strong post-flop, and may be able to ditch TPTK, overpair, or two-pair hands that they'd stack off with had you raised. This also disguises your big hands better, since you're raising a much wider range.

Basically, raising small PPs from any position is the way to go. In FR, maybe limping very early is OK, but I'd still raise. In 6-max, these PPs are a must-raise.

[Yo'Maha]

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BTW, there will be more posts coming on Table dynamics, Playing the Player not your cards, and the efectiveness of raising SCs UTG.

~Rich

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If they include the generic "never do this and here's an example of a hand I got crushed in that shows you why", then spare us all.

All the other minutia in your last post didn't exist in your first post..........but they really didn't have anything to do with my post....so for what it's worth - thanks.

Thanks for the thought on my reading comprehension. You're probably right in this instance. Your post lost my attention when I got to your AA story that could be repeated by EVERY poker player that has ever played....and simply pissed me off when you tied it to a reason to NEVER open-limp.

Give a good example of a place and time when you would want to open limp and then show why it doesn't work in another "seemingly similar" instance, and then you have an educational post. But for now, it's still the worst post in 2p2 history.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[Jigsaws]

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That's the second time I'm seen stuff like this in this thread from people that I consider solid players, and it's dead wrong. So what if most of the time you're folding post-flop after raising your small PP preflop? The profits you make when you flop a set and stack your unsuspecting opponents more than outweighs your losses. Stacking someone with a set in an unraised pot with a low PP is extremely difficult. Basically, if all the money goes in, your opponent needs top two pair, a higher set or better.

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No, that would assume villain is somewhat sane. That's not the kind of villain I'm talking about. I'm talking 50+ VPIP here. The type that will stack off with TPNK in a raised pot every time. The type that will call at least two barrels with TPNK in a limped pot as well, and obv. stack off with TPTK.

I'm not saying I do this often (I don't think I've open limped at 100NL at all), I'm just saying that in very specific situations, it's okay.

[RichC.]

What, no flipament?

The AA example was the only one I could think of at the time. Its also very simple and many players can relate to it, which causes..........wait for it...........LEARNING.

You say this is the worst post in 2p2 history? Thanks, but you must be so [censored] good and close minded that you cant see past your eyelids.

BTW, do I win anything for making the worst post ever?

I mean, seriously, I dont see you offering anything or even trying to offer anything even semi-insightful, so please, go back to lurking and let those of us who enjoy debating poker strategy continue.

You want a good example, here:

Limp A5s UTG and pair your A in a five way pot? think your good? highly doubtful

Now Raise it (which i do not recommend): you gete it HU, more than likely you are ahead when you pair your A.

Quick and easy.

Now go back to lurking.

[Yo'Maha]

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I dont open limp at all, full ring or 6max.

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There's some poker strategy for you. Come on....Are you seriously upset that I think your post was WAAAy too generic to be considered good poker talk?

Come on...you're actually telling people to NEVER open-limp into a pot.

I mean hell, how many maniacs do you run into on a daily basis that will do all of the raising for you....trying to chase you out of a pot with your monster? Utilize others' aggression against them. It's a solid, profitable play in certain instances. For the most part, against unknowns, it's bad advice, for the reasons you mention - tantamount to slow-playing.

But for God's sake, to run a thread that says "NEVER" and "PURE SPEW" just limits thinking. Post a hand with reads and talk about the dynamics involved.....but to just tell every Tom, Dick and Harry to NEVER open limp and here's why, just causes them to lose value in many situations.

My two cents.

Now go back to posting your 10000000000's of posts and I'll go lurk.

[RichC.]

Yo'Maha,

You still dont get it do you? This is basic preflop play. Raise or fold should be your only choices crossing your mind. I did say in my OP that there are times to open limp, but you didnt read that far down so how would you know that?

[Yo'Maha]

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Yo'Maha,

This is basic preflop play. Raise or fold should be your only choices crossing your mind. I did say in my OP that there are times to open limp, but you didnt read that far down so how would you know that?

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So which one is it? "Only two choices raise or fold".....or "there are times to open limp"

I think I get it all too well. You've confused yourself, which only proves my point that generic advice with no regard to other factors is not helpful to anyone's game. There are plenty of books out there to tell people how to play ABC poker. This site is supposed to encourage thought.

Don't be so offended. I'm sorry about the "worst post" stuff, but really.......try to encourage thought. And thought shouldn't be limited to higher limits only.

[RichC.]

Its so easy for you to pick apart someone's mistakes isnt it? When I see you make an attempt to post something worthy of discussion, then maybe I will give a [censored] about your opinion.


And no I didnt confuse myself, I know exactly what I said.

[EMc]

no flaming

Rich you are like a magnet to for this.

In all seriousness, while I think your heart is in the right place, you might wanna lay off the theory posts until you are more accustomed to ring unlimited betting hold them.

Yomaha,

This post got some good debate going, but I do agree it is a little generic, but arent all theory posts. Calm down killer.