Common spot when defending blinds

[soah]

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I am afraid you don't quite understand reverse implied odds.

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QFT

[ryanghall]

I think calling w/ KJs is fine preflop. He's not looking to flop top pair and back his stack with it - he's not stacking off without 2 pair or a monster draw minimum. I think the strength of the hand is enough to negate the reverse implied odds from hands like AJ/KQ, etc..

Ryan

[ipokeder]

punter, the villian has position and pot control; he can play JT or K9 (lol?) perfectly whereas you cannot play KJs perfectly without flopping a solid draw or 2p+, which obviously does not happen very often.

[punter11235]

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punter, the villian has position and pot control; he can play JT or K9 (lol?) perfectly

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[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
How he can play JT perfectly ? If he flops a J he lose. If he doesnt flop anythign he will in most cases just lose his cbet.
You guys must play some diffrent game than me.
I only hope all my opponent will fold KJs to a steal. Unfortunately they dont despite what they write in the posts.

[ipokeder]

KJs, QJs, etc. are pretty hands but they are hands when played at face value have really bad reverse implied odds and cannot be played profitably coldcalled against most opponents from the small blind. if you think that coldcalling KJs from the sb, you will make him lose his c-bet most of the time by checkraising (or frontbetting?) you are horribly misguided, and in which case it doesn't really matter in the first place whether you coldcall with 32o or KJs because you don't really plan to show your hand down very often, especially since most of the situations where you will be legitimately pushing back will be with draws rather than top pair.

In the fantastic world where we are so [censored] good that we checkraise 66% of flops and never end up losing money with KJs vs KQ on Kxx and where JT will 2-barrel on Jxx, i'm sure money will come pouring into your account but i think it doesn't really work that way.

if you don't think this is a clear example of the consequences of positional disadvantage and reverse implied odds, explain to me a better one and explain why this does not fit the bill as such a situation.

oh, and like i said, yes i do fold KJs in this position about 90% of the time. i think the last time i thought that this call was ok was at 100NL, and i have chastized myself for making this call (KJs QJs KTs same [censored]) every time i've done it since.

cheers

[soah]

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punter, the villian has position and pot control; he can play JT or K9 (lol?) perfectly

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[img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
How he can play JT perfectly ? If he flops a J he lose.

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From past experience I know that you are a lot smarter than this. =/

[aejones]

fold KJs here is sweet guys, FRIGGIN NITS

[10kfightyo]

Well put dings.

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I think the strength of the hand is enough to negate the reverse implied odds from hands like AJ/KQ, etc..

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The reverse implied odds don't just come from the possible domination. Other factors include often check/folding the best hand, rarely winning much when the flop comes nicely anyway, not knowing where we're at a lot of the time and so on.

[10kfightyo]

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fold KJs here is sweet guys, FRIGGIN NITS

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I only said folding > calling, usually. I'm reraising a lot too. If villain was more of a 27/21 type and my image isn't trash I probably 3bet this 90% of the time.

[aejones]

o ok