If Raptor can do it I can to - Metagame and Balancing the Open Limp

[Inyaface]

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If you had been limping a lot before this hand, then I like it a whole lot more.

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sigh does anyone even read my reasoning for the hand [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
(look above and I give my reasoning for the limp) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Slim Pickens]

I see this as an application of a very basic poker concept. You're playing a strong hand the same way as a weak hand, until such time as you get an opponent fully hooked on the idea you have a weak hand. Then you change your play to maximize your value from the strong hand, which is still something you would do with a weak hand a lot of the time.

The question seems to be "Assuming I've set it up properly, is it appropriate to open-limp QQ from the button sometimes?" Well, of course it's appropriate if you've set it up properly. If people agree with your premise that limping a bunch of junky hands sets this up, there's very little way to argue it's not a good play.

[Eagles]

I'm not crazy over this because I think if you shove you will get called worse. and the 6000 dead is so valuable to your stack that you need to pick it up. FWIW I love this play if you have 15 or 25bbs because in spots like this people open limp a lot. For example a hand I had in a multi yesterday. Villain who is good limps the button with 20bbs I have 10bbs in the sb and shove(I had j6 but would shove any two). The reasoning for this is his button limp is probably a marginal hand there's extra dead and my hand looks a lot stronger because I'm shoving over a limper when I could easily complete.

If your going to do the raptor limp with weak hands I think you also need to do it with strong hands so that way you can see more flops with marginal hands and also so you can trap big hands.

[Slim Pickens]

To a large extent, table dynamics are out of the direct control of even the best players. Limping a bunch of crap earlier to set up limping QQ is just a lot of wasted chips if you decide to bail on the plan because the table dynamics aren't perfect. Sure, we'd like a little deeper stack in this spot, but I don't think the loss you take from the stacks not being perfect offsets the deception value you've already purchased. It's also somewhat unlikely this situation will be presented again in the future with a better arrangement of stacks and players.

[Inyaface]

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To a large extent, table dynamics are out of the direct control of even the best players. Limping a bunch of crap earlier to set up limping QQ is just a lot of wasted chips

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I didn't limp to set up the play. Rather I limped in +ev spots and the play seemed to set up itself

[Slim Pickens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To a large extent, table dynamics are out of the direct control of even the best players. Limping a bunch of crap earlier to set up limping QQ is just a lot of wasted chips

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't limp to set up the play. Rather I limped in +ev spots and the play seemed to set up itself

[/ QUOTE ]

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Now by limping my seeming hand range is low to mid suited connecters, low pairs, Ace rag mediocre kings and queens, j10 etc. Basically hands that I almost never call a shove with.

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How do you get people to put you on this limping range if you're only limping in +EV limping spots, or is that a trade secret? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Inyaface]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
To a large extent, table dynamics are out of the direct control of even the best players. Limping a bunch of crap earlier to set up limping QQ is just a lot of wasted chips

[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't limp to set up the play. Rather I limped in +ev spots and the play seemed to set up itself

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Now by limping my seeming hand range is low to mid suited connecters, low pairs, Ace rag mediocre kings and queens, j10 etc. Basically hands that I almost never call a shove with.

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How do you get people to put you on this limping range if you're only limping in +EV limping spots, or is that a trade secret? [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Well this is whole point of raptors theory that you can limp hands that you can't call a reshove with if you feel these hands have post flop value when your in position and your not likely to get shoved on.

[Daleroxxu]

lol, in the STTF irc room.....

[19:31] <Ar3s> and 3rd again ;/
[19:31] <Ar3s> some donk openlimpg QQ on the button
[19:35] <Kibby> haha, someone must have read 2+2 this morning

Inyaface has influence.

[AMT]

[ QUOTE ]
lol, in the STTF irc room.....

[19:31] <Ar3s> and 3rd again ;/
[19:31] <Ar3s> some donk openlimpg QQ on the button
[19:35] <Kibby> haha, someone must have read 2+2 this morning

Inyaface has influence.

[/ QUOTE ]


best post ever.


max,

I agree with slim's point about the idea that if people agree on your premise and setup of the situation that its difficult to argue against it. That said, i kind of like it with the very specific situation that you presented it in, but i really dont like it in general. if you really had the reads that you did, again, pretty tough to argue it but with the nature of your stack and the blinds in a mtt im playing pretty aggro in general and i would continue to do so with a hand like QQ. Fact is, you werent playing like this necessarily from the looks of it so it may have been ok in this particular post....since its so situation i dont know how much content there is left to discuss except for analyzing the same situation with diff players in the blinds/stacks/if you had JJ, etc etc


then again, last night i tried to trap someone at the FT of a mtt with KK and an A flopped and I bustoed in 7th, so i prob. inately hate your play with a big PP [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] mtt's are rigged.

[Inyaface]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
lol, in the STTF irc room.....

[19:31] <Ar3s> and 3rd again ;/
[19:31] <Ar3s> some donk openlimpg QQ on the button
[19:35] <Kibby> haha, someone must have read 2+2 this morning

Inyaface has influence.

[/ QUOTE ]


best post ever.


max,

I agree with slim's point about the idea that if people agree on your premise and setup of the situation that its difficult to argue against it. That said, i kind of like it with the very specific situation that you presented it in, but i really dont like it in general. if you really had the reads that you did, again, pretty tough to argue it but with the nature of your stack and the blinds in a mtt im playing pretty aggro in general and i would continue to do so with a hand like QQ. Fact is, you werent playing like this necessarily from the looks of it so it may have been ok in this particular post....since its so situation i dont know how much content there is left to discuss except for analyzing the same situation with diff players in the blinds/stacks/if you had JJ, etc etc


then again, last night i tried to trap someone at the FT of a mtt with KK and an A flopped and I bustoed in 7th, so i prob. inately hate your play with a big PP [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] mtt's are rigged.

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YAY I FEEL SO SPECIAL!
Also it might be one of those posts where I did it with reads and you can't really argue against it but something to take out of this thread might be how metagame presents spots like this and how important it is to trick opponents by balancing your range (more so in MTT's and Cash then sng's obviously)