TPTK: A Realization

[Clayton]

you have the best one pair hand, four handed. and its vulnerable.

congrats on your realization! glad you didnt lost your $193 in vain. [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

[derosnec]

this isn't just that a TAG leads into you when you hold TPTK

it's that it's a TAG who leads into 3 people on a flop that likely hit the pfr

i'm folding this. yeah he could have a combo draw and you might pick it up on the turn when it bricks, BUT . . . there are 2 others left to act (and he knows it). ok, the two others probably don't have AA or Q3, but combo draws, 33, and even QQ are not beyond the realm of possibility. There are alot of cards that can come on the turn make two pairs, straights, flushes, etc where you will have to dump your hand or get stacked. With 4 people in the pot it's going to be hard to a) pick up this pot on the flop, b) avoid a tough decision on the turn, and c) pick up this pot on the turn

(also this goes back to the derosnec theorem which never caught on [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] namely that when you are the pfr, the minimum somewhat will put you on is AK, and so if you get action on a flop that would pair your A or K, then you are likely toast)

[kidcolin]

This is either a flop call or an outright fold. If it's HU I call, but he's leading into 3 players. Calling is dangerous with two behind you. His flop donk just screams, "please raise so I can shove."

[Haiku]

I would probably just call the flop bet. Sure, you're pricing in flush draws, but obviously you're not putting another cent in the pot if the turn is a heart.

[steel108]

Orange: I like the raise on the flop, but hate the push call. You played it good until the push call. Is this what you are referring to. What alternate lines are you considering here? You can't fold outright to his bet on the flop and I think calling is even worse.

FWIW: I have found that on Full Tilt, the regulars at 200NL take villans exact same line with a naked flush draw. Alot more aggresive than Party.

Haiku: assuming villan is solid, a flat call on the flop will essentially turn your cards up in this spot. You hand range is probably K-K or A-K in this spot. What do you do if your checked to the turn when a blank drops?

[orange]

I don't understand why a raise is even necessary here. He's leading into 3 other players. Why am I raising? For value? What worse hands do you expect a TAG villan to call here, especially after leading here?

[True]

[ QUOTE ]
Orange: I like the raise on the flop, but hate the push call. You played it good until the push call. Is this what you are referring to. What alternate lines are you considering here? You can't fold outright to his bet on the flop and I think calling is even worse.

FWIW: I have found that on Full Tilt, the regulars at 200NL take villans exact same line with a naked flush draw. Alot more aggresive than Party.

Haiku: assuming villan is solid, a flat call on the flop will essentially turn your cards up in this spot. You hand range is probably K-K or A-K in this spot. What do you do if your checked to the turn when a blank drops?

[/ QUOTE ]

hardly, we can easily have a set or a flush draw or 2 pair.

also you say guys do what Villain did with FD a lot so why no call? Why is raise flop good?

[derosnec]

[ QUOTE ]


also you say guys do what Villain did with FD a lot so why no call?

[/ QUOTE ]

no way a tag is doing that with a FD here. unless he truly sucks and hates money

[True]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


also you say guys do what Villain did with FD a lot so why no call?

[/ QUOTE ]

no way a tag is doing that with a FD here. unless he truly sucks and hates money

[/ QUOTE ]

I would, and I really hate money

[jk3a]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand why a raise is even necessary here. He's leading into 3 other players. Why am I raising? For value? What worse hands do you expect a TAG villan to call here, especially after leading here?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the most important part of this thread yet. People should take note of this. Calling allows us to further evaluate the hands the players behind us hold cheaper and helps us control the size of the pot. Despite the fact that there are many profitable spots to felt TPTK, this just simply isn't one of them. I wish that we (myself included) could avoid auto-pilot type play more often.