Am I playing a marginal hand too passively?

[Deviance]

At these stakes, AJs is FAR too strong to fold preflop, even to a raise. In addition to SSH, HFAP suggests calling AJs against a raise in early position even if the game is typical or tough, unless the raiser is 'extremely tight'. Do not typically fold this hand in these micro-limits; it wins much more than its share of the pot against a field of bad players.

[CrMenace]

[ QUOTE ]
BDSD, BDFD 3 outs, ace 1.5 outs, jack 0.5 outs.

[/ QUOTE ] That's pretty generous for the BDSD. The odds of getting runner-runner KT are closer to those of 0.5 outs. That gives you 4 outs at best, so okay, depending on the rake the flop peel might be break even.

[00Snitch]

im probably not calling that utg raise pf, but ive been playing tight games, maybe you can do it if there are gunna be another cold-caller or two behind..

you can barely take one off the flop, you got around 4 outs, plus position.

i guess now you gotta call the turn and fold the river to the raise.

who would have overcalled on the river if UTG hadnt raised? i probably would have, but not liked it.

this is a crappy hand, maybe folding the flop woulda been best. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img] but i just cant see how you can do that getting 10:1.

[Befolder]

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The SSH charts definitely recommend cold-calling a raiser with AJs. Remember that those were written for looser games (a bygone time, mostly).

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Isn't this an argument for not calling then? AJs is certainly looking for multi-way action against your typicaly UTG range.

The very fact that the games are no longer loosey goosey means we fold and wait for a better opportunity. We're very likley going HU or 3 way to the flop. Not enough for the drawing opportunities (preflop), and our hand isn't good enough HU against his range either.

We're not looking to get into WA/WB situations voluntarily, but calling will accomplish just that.

[Befolder]

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At these stakes, AJs is FAR too strong to fold preflop, even to a raise. In addition to SSH, HFAP suggests calling AJs against a raise in early position even if the game is typical or tough, unless the raiser is 'extremely tight'. Do not typically fold this hand in these micro-limits; it wins much more than its share of the pot against a field of bad players.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter what the little charties say and it doesn't matter what stakes you're playing at. They are guidelines that have to be adjusted to the players at your table. If it's tight, which it likely is, then AJs is no longer playable up there for an UTG open raise.

[Deviance]

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If it's tight, which it likely is, then AJs is no longer playable up there for an UTG open raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you look at my post, you'll see that I stated that you should fold if the UTG raiser is very tight. If in this hand the raiser does fit this description, then folding is not an error. I'll also admit that I perused through most of this thread.

However, my point remains that in GENERAL, you shouldn't be folding AJs to a raise in early position. The typical play is to call with it, folding is more the deviation than the standard play. Yes, this even applies to tougher games.

I made this post because people were treating AJs as a folding hand to an early raiser, and that you would only call if he was rather aggressive. This is just plain wrong. Folding is the exception, not the rule.

[drzen]

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[ QUOTE ]
At these stakes, AJs is FAR too strong to fold preflop, even to a raise. In addition to SSH, HFAP suggests calling AJs against a raise in early position even if the game is typical or tough, unless the raiser is 'extremely tight'. Do not typically fold this hand in these micro-limits; it wins much more than its share of the pot against a field of bad players.

[/ QUOTE ]

It doesn't matter what the little charties say and it doesn't matter what stakes you're playing at. They are guidelines that have to be adjusted to the players at your table. If it's tight, which it likely is, then AJs is no longer playable up there for an UTG open raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is exactly right. Against a raiser this tight, unless you're absolutely certain that you'll get a hatload of calls behind, Ed Miller himself is folding this.

And AJs is not *far too strong*! It is getting killed by the raiser (65/35). Time to move up from level one (I have an ace -- I'm strong) to level two (I have an ace, he has something bigger -- I'm weak).

[Befolder]

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I made this post because people were treating AJs as a folding hand to an early raiser, and that you would only call if he was rather aggressive. This is just plain wrong. Folding is the exception, not the rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

It generally is next to act in this situation. If two other players cold called it before it got to me, I'd call all day long. If one caller, I'd seriously consider calling and my clicker would probably wander towards call unable to deter it.

Look at it this way. What hands that UTG is betting are we ahead of?

AK, AQ, AJ, AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, sometimes 99. We're ahead of none of those and I didn't even invlude the suited versions. We have position which is good, but we have no idea if we're ahead if an ace flop or the board is J high. We're in a marginal or worst situation on nearly all flops.

So lets be nice to our walls, pencils and stress squeezers and just click fold unless we know we have cold calling losers behind us. We're not losing anything by giving up AJs here.

You should be folding AJs for two in EP...UNLESS conditions are right. They're usually not more than average.

Adjustments to each set of players is most important. What we know here is not enough to tell us that calling is correct or will be after everyone is done acting.

[Deviance]

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This is exactly right. Against a raiser this tight, unless you're absolutely certain that you'll get a hatload of calls behind, Ed Miller himself is folding this.

[/ QUOTE ]

My comment was not geared toward this particular raiser. I was responding to the general trend of comments that AJs is a clear fold to a raiser under the gun. Perhaps I should have clarified this point early on.

If you can expect multiway action, which I assumed typically occurs at microlimits, then it is generally wrong to fold AJs to an early raiser, unless he is quite tight. Even so, the hand is very resiliant multiway, and thus does not suffer as strongly from the effects of domination. And yes, against a group of bad players it wins enough past its share to be considered a strong hand.

I haven't played at these levels for a while now, and it is possible that they have gotten much tighter since the legislation, and this may influence the decision to call or fold. I play mostly live with many bad players cold-calling an early raiser; my impression was that this would be the case at the microlimits. But rather, if this is the case: the raiser is tight, and the players behind you will likely not participate, then go ahead a fold.

To sum up, my comment was aimed toward the general thinking of playing AJs in early position. Perhaps this was not the best place to post it.

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You should be folding AJs for two in EP...UNLESS conditions are right. They're usually not more than average.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. It generally takes no more than a couple of players to call behind us to make this play correct. This is more true when they play poorly postflop. On average, the conditions will be right. I think you are overestimating the times where you will face a very tight raiser and have everyone else fold behind you to it.

In addition, folding here where you would otherwise get bad players to cold call behind you is a larger error in terms of expectation than calling and having a field of tight players fold behind you.

In balance, if you do not know the table conditions, then you should call rather than fold. If you must err, do it on the side of the smallest loss in expectation.

[NIX]

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In balance, if you do not know the table conditions, then you should call rather than fold. If you must err, do it on the side of the smallest loss in expectation.

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Well, if you fold, you lose 0 bets overall and that doesn't change. If I play AJs here, I would have a loss of expectation as I normally win +xBB when I am dealt AJs, but I'm winning more in late position or when I'm raising, not calling an EP raise in bad position. My expectation in this situation is (x-y)BB, which is less than +xBB. Surely a loss of 0 is less than a loss of something.

Or are you saying you should call because the loss in expectation from xBB to (x-y)BB is smaller than the loss in expectation from (x-y)BB to 0?