25/50: AA / nut flush deep

[aba20]

[ QUOTE ]
Would stinger ever raise preflop with a hand like AK45 double-suited?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes but he wouldnt' have a nut flush draw and probably wouldnt' raise the flop and pot the turn without a nut flush draw to go with the oesd witht he two shorter stacks in the pot.

[beset]

I think you've got this hand dialed in Aba. I don't see what else you could do besides try to move him off hands he is unlikely to have. I admire the bravado in Danny's suggestions but sounds borderline give your reads. Stacks are not deep enough to call the turn esp. if he is not calling a shove on non-pairing club. nh!

[wazz]

I don't think it's an open-and-shut case that he has 777 here at all. An aggressive, good player will often raise with hands that look very nice on flops like this, e.g.4567 w/clubs. I think your bet-call on the flop after the preflop action doesn't look like 2-pair, so your likely range of hands here is decent wrap w / wo flush draw, or overpair plus high flush draw, and sometimes a set. And by overpair, usually at least QQ+, especially with NFD. So you have a good hand on the flop but he's taken control of the pot by being in position. I think he makes this move a lot with hands like 456 or A45, a lot of the time with flush draws, which are vulnerable but have a lot of potential to win, and is trying to force out hands that are splitting a few like 456x and obv higher flush draw + overpair which are slightly dominating. Against a set he is not doing too badly at all with such a hand. If you figure that he accords you the same respect you accord him, he will know that you will fold hands such as this with discipline. I should also assume that he is willing to fire a continuation bet on the turn despite not hitting. All-in-all, I honestly think you are never really that well behind, and you are quite often well ahead, and I think sometimes this should be a 3-bet/all-in on the flop.

[pete fabrizio]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is stinger someone who I respect and is not going to be messing around without a hand with two shorter stacks yet to act. I think this is easy to play with a buy in or two but at 4 BI reraising the flop seemed bad to me. He is also not the type to pay off if he has a set and I do hit my flush. Comments welcome on all streets; especially thoughts on my flop play/other options.

Full Tilt Poker
Pot Limit Omaha Ring game
Blinds: $25/$50
6 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $19738
UTG+1: $2222
CO: $2658.25
Button: $4535.10
SB: $4847
Hero: $20041.80

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $175</font>, UTG+1 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($700, 4 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets $700</font>, <font color="#cc0000">UTG raises to $2600</font>, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($5900, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">UTG bets $5300</font>, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: $5300 returned to UTG.

Results:
Final pot: $5900

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you should strongly consider putting in another raise on the flop. You have many of the hands in his range in bad shape (e.g., KK, QQ, even AA with 2 clubs, wrap with clubs), many of the hands that are either beating you or will be beating you by river will fold (2 pair hands, maybe naked wrap, maaaybe bottom or middle set). Also since you have AA his wrap is less likely to come in if he has it and calls (examples: you're better than 60-40 against 3456 even if he has 2 clubs; you're also only a slight dog to 3457 with 2 clubs). If he does have top set, you're usually only a 2-1 dog or 3-1 at absolute worst (if he has 7745 with 2 clubs). And while a set is def possible, I don't think it's his most likely holding here as an UTG raiser. maybe some players will never raise this flop with less than a set, but a) they're unlikely to be playing 25-50, and b) they're unlikely to have raised utg with a hand containing 77, 33, or 22. I also don't think the two short stacks behind really change the situation, since I'm presuming most hands he would raise on the flop have some good combination of strength/outs, and he may be even more inclined to raise something like KK with 2 clubs knowing he isn't going to have to face any tough decisions from those players. But obv your read of your opp should be controlling.

The problem on the turn is that his range of hands is slightly stronger, since sometimes he would go for a free card, and yours is slightly weaker, since you only have one card to hit your flush. I might occassionally throw in the Bruiser check-raise there so that I can pull off check-raises with top set more often, but generally I'd rather just jam the flop. Your line on this street doesn't bother me, esp since you're going to have a hard time playing the river if you just call. E.g., what if the 3 pairs, are you going to check-fold? An Ace? If a club comes and you bet, he has a good chance of laying down even a good flush, and if you check, he'll prob check even the K-high behind. Idunno, just seems ugly, so I'm fine with how you played it on the turn, even though I think there's a good chance you're ahead.

[beset]

Wazz,

I think the argument against your reasoning, which I think would be very good under some circumstances, is the presence of the shorter stacks which Aba believes, and I'd tend to agree, makes some of what you are saying less likely. And, sometimes, when someone is playing his position this well and might be outplaying us with the range you suggest, well they just earned a pot--not the end of the world as long as we are getting our share as well. At the moment I think Aba is right and the presence of the two shorter stacks left to act when stinger raises the flop makes folding to a turn PSB more appropriate then bet/3-bet all-in on the flop--what I would normally do versus an aggressive player heads up with 100-200bb stacks.

[theBruiser500]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's an open-and-shut case that he has 777 here at all. An aggressive, good player will often raise with hands that look very nice on flops like this, e.g.4567 w/clubs. I think your bet-call on the flop after the preflop action doesn't look like 2-pair, so your likely range of hands here is decent wrap w / wo flush draw, or overpair plus high flush draw, and sometimes a set. And by overpair, usually at least QQ+, especially with NFD. So you have a good hand on the flop but he's taken control of the pot by being in position. I think he makes this move a lot with hands like 456 or A45, a lot of the time with flush draws, which are vulnerable but have a lot of potential to win, and is trying to force out hands that are splitting a few like 456x and obv higher flush draw + overpair which are slightly dominating. Against a set he is not doing too badly at all with such a hand. If you figure that he accords you the same respect you accord him, he will know that you will fold hands such as this with discipline. I should also assume that he is willing to fire a continuation bet on the turn despite not hitting. All-in-all, I honestly think you are never really that well behind, and you are quite often well ahead, and I think sometimes this should be a 3-bet/all-in on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i agree with what wazz is saying, the idea basically you fold hands that dominate him (and even if you don't and he has a wrap + flush draw he still has outs). his plan woudl be to bet/call cause if you have a set and he has 456c he still has 13 straight outs and 7 other flush outs or something so against a set he is still about 50/50 on the turn.

[CrushinFelt]

The solution here is to reraise on the flop. Then if the turn blanks you decided whether or not to fire another bullet. I probably would at that point because so much money is in there now that a fold to someone with just 7788 or the like is a bad fold.

If he raises your reraise then he's likely got 456 with clubs or 77 and maybe a straight draw with it. How likely is it that he's just getting it in here with top set (7788 7799 ds etc.)

As played, its probably a muck on the turn with no implied odds.

Also, is our Ace dead (4577) in that case yuck and its definitely a fold on the turn.

THe more I think about this hand the more it's a fold on the turn and it's a reraise on the flop.

Sorry, sort of a skitzo post... in a hurry.

[CallYNotRaise06]

aba, because of how villain views you, and how deep you guys are, i really think you played this hand great. preflop i can go either way, a reraise isnt bad if you have a pretty wide range especially this deep, but a call is fine too imo. nh.

[theBruiser500]

i take back my point that opponent would not reraise all in on flop with top set because on this board 237 there aren't any strong straight draws out there, just 456 (there is no way to use card 4 in the straight draw), so even with 456c 77 with no other redraws is a favorite all in on flop

[wazz]

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Yes but he wouldnt' have a nut flush draw and probably wouldnt' raise the flop and pot the turn without a nut flush draw to go with the oesd witht he two shorter stacks in the pot.

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A45 is not an oesd here. AK45 could be 2nd nut flush draw + 11-way straight draw, certainly good enough against two shortstacks and you OOP.