Mat, David, Mason...where are you?

[zimmer879]

I can understand why 2+2 doesn't want to attach it's name to an organization it knows little about. What I don't understand is why 2+2 has done nothing to try to bring awareness to this legislation. Not only would that potentially benefit it's bottom line, but it would also assist all those that have made poker a significant part of their lives, thanks in large part to the great books and message boards that 2+2 provides. What am I missing?

[BluffTHIS!]

What a some of you aren't getting here, is exactly what Mason is saying. He is saying that because of deficiencies with PPA, that they aren't in general deserving of support. He isn't saying not to support the positive activities that they are doing like the phone march or other things. Nor has he exactly "done nothing" to bring about awareness of the threats posed by the legislation. He hosts this board where we as individuals, and groups like PPA or the executives of online gaming companies are welcome to make threads and posts to make other posters more aware, as long as they don't use these forums to explicitly solicit funds. It's not like there has been a shortage of threads on this issue in the past months in this or other forums. And I am sure he realizes what he can stand to lose if such legislation passes and is effective in severely curtailing online poker, becuase his book sales could well plummet as the B&M crowd is in the distinct minority around here.

I personally am not quite as negative on PPA as some, but they aren't helping themselves as much as they could. They have done and are doing postive things like hiring lobbyists, bringing those name players to DC to lobby, and encouraging posters here to participate in the phone march. But what they aren't doing is being transparent to the degree needed about their spending of members' funds and with communication to members. It just really isn't that hard to have on their website their expenditures and activities. Sure they can't discuss they lobbied privately with senator X and give that senator's name, but they can say the spent Y dollars with a lobbying firm and on their own salaries, who met so many senators with such and such general results (i.e. they or their lobbyists met with 10 senators or staff this week and secured promises for 2 holds but without mentioning actual names).

The posters here on 2+2 will always be the most committed core group for the base of PPA or a similar organization, and PPA should strive to keep us better informed as to their activities in order to keep that support.

[zimmer879]

Bluff,

I think what's unfortunate is not that 2+2 doesn't support the PPA, which I acknowledge is probably good business sense. It's that the sum total of their contribution to this issue, at least on this board, has been their criticism of the PPA. If they became a little more visible in voicing their opinion on the bill, it would probably go a long way, even if only on their own boards.

[BluffTHIS!]

zimmer,

Surely it should be obvious that Mason et. al. don't support that bill or such restrictions on gambling. If hardly anyone was taking notice or making their own threads, then maybe you could say that. But this whole forum has mostly been discussing this issue since it was started, and there are and have been numerous threads in the zoo and various strat forums on this as well.

[IWEARGOGGLES]

This thread wasn't about 2+2 supporting PPA.

This thread is about 2+2 doing something noteworthy on their own.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
I can understand why 2+2 doesn't want to attach it's name to an organization it knows little about. What I don't understand is why 2+2 has done nothing to try to bring awareness to this legislation. Not only would that potentially benefit it's bottom line, but it would also assist all those that have made poker a significant part of their lives, thanks in large part to the great books and message boards that 2+2 provides. What am I missing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ditto. I agree with Mason 100% about the PPA. Frankly, I think the PPA is a joke.

However, I am baffled by 2+2's do-nothing approach to this legislation considering the huge impact that it will have on the poker community in general and 2+2's bottom line in particular.

[Bilgefisher]

[ QUOTE ]
This thread wasn't about 2+2 supporting PPA.

This thread is about 2+2 doing something noteworthy on their own.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is exactly what were trying to say. Ignore the PPA issue for the time being, tell us what 2+2 is doing.

[ QUOTE ]
Nor has he exactly "done nothing" to bring about awareness of the threats posed by the legislation. He hosts this board where we as individuals, and groups like PPA or the executives of online gaming companies are welcome to make threads and posts to make other posters more aware, as long as they don't use these forums to explicitly solicit funds.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a lazy cop out in my opinion. Yes they created a forum for poker players to participate in discussions about the issues. Thats really no tough feat. So have dozens of other people. There is quite a few poker forums out there. You don't see them sitting around doing nothing.

As a consumer of 2+2 merchandise and books, I am asking them to step to the plate and do something. This is no different then a consumer asking some company to help out in there community. To sit back and do nothing is bad PR and in my opinion bad business.

[PairTheBoard]

What exactly would you have 2+2 do? I guess they could advertise opposition to the efforts to ban poker - like the PPA has done. They could issue press releases giving the position of the tens of thousands of poker players they represent on the pending legislation like the PPA has done - except 2+2 doesn't really represent anybody. They could provide automated assistance to people who want to email or call their elected representatives - like PPA has done. They could commision a Poll by a marketing research firm showing 75% of Americans oppose the banning of online poker like PPA has done. They could team with Pocket5's to organize an email blitz of House Reps to oppose the House legislation with facilating automated software like PPA did - except it's too late for that. They could organize something like the September 12th Call-In campaign to Senators like PPA did. They could organize a rally at the WSOP energizing players to oppose the legislation like PPA did - except it's too late for that. They could go to Capital Hill and talk to Senators/Senator Reps conveying the position of the tens of thousands of poker players they represent like PPA is doing - except 2+2 doesn't really represent anybody.

What exactly do you expect 2+2 to do that PPA isn't already doing?




btw, I knew nothing about PPA until I read this thread and went to The PPA Website to peruse it.


PairTheBoard

[Mr.K]

[ QUOTE ]
What exactly do you expect 2+2 to do that PPA isn't already doing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of me wants to really unleash an answer to that question, but in the interest of comity and productive discussion, I'm going to try and tread lightly.

The good folks who run 2+2 have done a tremendous service to the poker playing community by hosting this discussion board, and they ought to get credit for that. They ought to get credit in particular for dedicating a forum to discussion of the legislation pending in Congress, and for making the right move by designating Berge as moderator. He is the best man for the job, and he knows the issues. I doubt any other similar forum is moderated or structured as well.

On the other hand, there seem to me to be many other things that 2+2 management could do to "advance the cause." As others have pointed out, this "cause" is not one that 2+2 management should be indifferent towards -- it affects their bottom line in a major, major way. This cause also happens to be the hobby or even source of employment for a great many of 2+2's customers and electronic board users. In other words, participants and management are united in their interest on this question.

As I see it presently, there are no good reasons for 2+2 management not to be clearly advocating a position on the legislation, and taking action on that position. This is not a legal matter, where I could understand them being reluctant to get involved. It does not deal with taxes, where again I understand the hesitation. Nothing about advocacy on the legislation -- an exercise of constitutionally protected first amendment rights for both individuals and corporations -- would expose 2+2 management to litigation or other problems, whether real or perceived. There is simply no excuse that I am aware of (PM me if you know of one, I'll always keep an open mind).

Having established that there are good reasons to take action, and that none appear to exist suggesting otherwise, I will name just one easy thing 2+2 management could do to bring its resources to bear on the cause at hand. They could combine their intellectual capital, which is significant, and their electronic membership databases, which are also great -- but perhaps no match for the previously mentioned intellectual capacity -- and make a call to action in their usual, well thought out fashion. Put differently, they could send a blast PM or e-mail informing all 2+2 members of what is happening in Congress, and in a very matter of fact format, what could happen if the legislation becomes law. At the close of the e-mail or PM, a link to the legislation forum could be included where users who decide they want to learn more, or take action on their own, could be provided.

We learn in 2+2 poker books to weigh the odds intelligently, and to use limited information to the best of our advantage. We learn to play tight when playing tight is +EV, and to play aggressively when conditions dictate. This is one such situation where aggression gets the money, and the price of caution and silence is much, much greater than the costs associated with action.

Call it the Fundamental Theory of Politics if you want, but I am quite sure that I am right on this one, and the events unfolding in Congress right now do a great deal to prove as much. I do not think any of us should expect David, Mason, or other 2+2 leaders to expend great amounts of their time, money, or energy on lobbying Congress or their membership. These folks are poker experts, not lobbyists, and we should remember that. Nonetheless, 2+2's management is uniquely positioned to make a positive contribution to a cause that they (and their customers) are very much invested in, whether they like it or not.

To David, Mason, Mat, and the rest of your management team, I thank you for hosting this forum, and for doing so much to revoultionize the poker world through your books. We would not be where we are today as far as the state of the game, online or offline, without your contributions. Throughout, you have focused your energies on helping us play better poker, and your efforts have paid off. We now stand at a crossroads where many of us face the prospect of no longer being able to play at all -- and when you consider it, that's a lot worse than playing badly. Lend us a hand... you'll be glad you did.

[Lawman007]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What exactly do you expect 2+2 to do that PPA isn't already doing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of me wants to really unleash an answer to that question, but in the interest of comity and productive discussion, I'm going to try and tread lightly.

The good folks who run 2+2 have done a tremendous service to the poker playing community by hosting this discussion board, and they ought to get credit for that. They ought to get credit in particular for dedicating a forum to discussion of the legislation pending in Congress, and for making the right move by designating Berge as moderator. He is the best man for the job, and he knows the issues. I doubt any other similar forum is moderated or structured as well.

On the other hand, there seem to me to be many other things that 2+2 management could do to "advance the cause." As others have pointed out, this "cause" is not one that 2+2 management should be indifferent towards -- it affects their bottom line in a major, major way. This cause also happens to be the hobby or even source of employment for a great many of 2+2's customers and electronic board users. In other words, participants and management are united in their interest on this question.

As I see it presently, there are no good reasons for 2+2 management not to be clearly advocating a position on the legislation, and taking action on that position. This is not a legal matter, where I could understand them being reluctant to get involved. It does not deal with taxes, where again I understand the hesitation. Nothing about advocacy on the legislation -- an exercise of constitutionally protected first amendment rights for both individuals and corporations -- would expose 2+2 management to litigation or other problems, whether real or perceived. There is simply no excuse that I am aware of (PM me if you know of one, I'll always keep an open mind).

Having established that there are good reasons to take action, and that none appear to exist suggesting otherwise, I will name just one easy thing 2+2 management could do to bring its resources to bear on the cause at hand. They could combine their intellectual capital, which is significant, and their electronic membership databases, which are also great -- but perhaps no match for the previously mentioned intellectual capacity -- and make a call to action in their usual, well thought out fashion. Put differently, they could send a blast PM or e-mail informing all 2+2 members of what is happening in Congress, and in a very matter of fact format, what could happen if the legislation becomes law. At the close of the e-mail or PM, a link to the legislation forum could be included where users who decide they want to learn more, or take action on their own, could be provided.

We learn in 2+2 poker books to weigh the odds intelligently, and to use limited information to the best of our advantage. We learn to play tight when playing tight is +EV, and to play aggressively when conditions dictate. This is one such situation where aggression gets the money, and the price of caution and silence is much, much greater than the costs associated with action.

Call it the Fundamental Theory of Politics if you want, but I am quite sure that I am right on this one, and the events unfolding in Congress right now do a great deal to prove as much. I do not think any of us should expect David, Mason, or other 2+2 leaders to expend great amounts of their time, money, or energy on lobbying Congress or their membership. These folks are poker experts, not lobbyists, and we should remember that. Nonetheless, 2+2's management is uniquely positioned to make a positive contribution to a cause that they (and their customers) are very much invested in, whether they like it or not.

To David, Mason, Mat, and the rest of your management team, I thank you for hosting this forum, and for doing so much to revoultionize the poker world through your books. We would not be where we are today as far as the state of the game, online or offline, without your contributions. Throughout, you have focused your energies on helping us play better poker, and your efforts have paid off. We now stand at a crossroads where many of us face the prospect of no longer being able to play at all -- and when you consider it, that's a lot worse than playing badly. Lend us a hand... you'll be glad you did.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very, very well put.

One of the main obstacles to informing and mobilizing 2+2ers is that there are some over-zealous moderators in most of these forums who immediately lock or transfer any post about this bill, so that only the relatively few 2+2ers who read the legislation forum have any idea what is going on right now. They may have heard about this bill and have some vague knowledge of it, but they are not aware of this latest stunt of Frist's and how important it is to contact his office and the offices of their own senators immediately.

An announcement about this bill on the main page and in a sticky at the top of each forum would be very easy to do and would be extremely helpful in getting the word out and getting more poker players to contact Frist and their own senators to voice their opposition to this bill.

This isn't about the PPA. Forget the PPA. It's about preserving the rights of 2+2 members to play poker on the internet, plain and simple.