check the flop, call down.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
ace is easiest card in the deck. what are you doing if it blanks? or a jack or ten.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good question and I wasn't sure how to answer it but such a card likely his both of my opponent hand ranges. Getting 5~:1, with unclean Ace-outs made up by some dirty-Queen outs, and the unlikleyhood of the BB c/ring, I'm calling there too.

[milesdyson]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is a LAGtard, very aggressive pre and post flop, the BB is super passive call station.

30/60 Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Joe Tall is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Joe Tall 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Joe Tall checks.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Joe Tall calls, BB folds.

River: (6.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Joe Tall calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]
joe tall,

i won't get into the flop action, but i would bet.

on the river, the key is that BB folded. you say UTG is a LAGtard and VERY aggressive pre and post flop. this is pretty key information.

i won't bother listing hands that fold the river, because they don't matter. you have probably made as much as you can from those hands by checking the flop and allowing him to bluff the big streets. i will only look at hands that can call or 3-bet the river, because those are the ones that dictate whether or not you should raise.

i will also assume he never 3-bets a worse hand but you will always call a 3-bet. so if he has A9 or KQ, i will assume he won't 3-bet. this is conservative in calling's favor.

hands that call (hand totals might be slightly off):

A2s+, A6o+ (not including AK/AQ because of preflop). this is 53 hands.

K9+ minus AK. this is 39 hands.

total hands that call = 92

hands that beat you and 3-bet you:

55 and JT, and JT is a stretch. but discounted 0%, these hands combine for a total 19 hands.

given my ranges (total of 111 hands), and assuming you always lose 2 against better hands and you always only win 1 from worse hands, the EV of raising the river is:

(92/111)(1) - (19/111)(2) = 0.49

so everyone suggesting the river raise was in fact suggesting to take another half a big bet from this player.

[PokerBob]

joe,
i'd be tempted to bet the flop, not because i necessarily have the best hand, but because i like to keep pressure on jackasses. if he has 77, he is gonna hate life. i want LAGS to hate life against me. that ais, i don;t think checking is all bad. were you betting the flop if BB got lost preflop and you were HU with the spazz?

on the river: La Gasolina.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]
were you betting the flop if BB got lost preflop and you were HU with the spazz?

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt.

[ QUOTE ]
i'd be tempted to bet the flop, not because i necessarily have the best hand, but because i like to keep pressure on jackasses.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was tempted but I still think it's a check even more so in retrospect as not many hands fold and getting c/r here but a LAGtard is not something I wanted to visit.

[Joe Tall]

[ QUOTE ]

joe tall,

i won't get into the flop action, but i would bet.

on the river, the key is that BB folded. you say UTG is a LAGtard and VERY aggressive pre and post flop. this is pretty key information.

i won't bother listing hands that fold the river, because they don't matter. you have probably made as much as you can from those hands by checking the flop and allowing him to bluff the big streets. i will only look at hands that can call or 3-bet the river, because those are the ones that dictate whether or not you should raise.

i will also assume he never 3-bets a worse hand but you will always call a 3-bet. so if he has A9 or KQ, i will assume he won't 3-bet. this is conservative in calling's favor.

hands that call (hand totals might be slightly off):

A2s+, A6o+ (not including AK/AQ because of preflop). this is 53 hands.

K9+ minus AK. this is 39 hands.

total hands that call = 92

hands that beat you and 3-bet you:

55 and JT, and JT is a stretch. but discounted 0%, these hands combine for a total 19 hands.

given my ranges (total of 111 hands), and assuming you always lose 2 against better hands and you always only win 1 from worse hands, the EV of raising the river is:

(92/111)(1) - (19/111)(2) = 0.49

so everyone suggesting the river raise was in fact suggesting to take another half a big bet from this player.

[/ QUOTE ]

Awesome response bro! What I ended up doing was putting him on one of two things, a stone called bluff, or a hand that beats me.

30/60 Hold'em (5 handed)

Preflop: Joe Tall is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Joe Tall 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Joe Tall checks.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Joe Tall calls, BB folds.

River: (6.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Joe Tall calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Results below:
UTG has 5h 4h (one pair, fives).
Joe Tall has Ac Qc (two pair, aces and queens).
Outcome: Joe Tall wins 8.75 BB.

[The Funky Llama]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you tell me why you would bet the flop and break down his hand range for getting paid off on the river, thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont really understand what you are asking in the second part of the question. I recommended a turn raise.

I'll do my best to answer the first part though. I normally bet here, but I am very open to being convinced that it is wrong. This is tough to do, but I tried putting these guys on some preflop hand ranges:

Board: Kc 9h 5d

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 25.2311 % 23.72% 01.51% { AcQc }
Hand 2 (UTG): 35.9083 % 34.65% 01.25% { TT-33, AQs-A2s, K3s+, Q7s+, J7s+, T9s, 98s, AQo-A2o, K6o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Hand 3 (BB): 38.8606 % 37.69% 01.17% { JJ-22, A2s+, K7s+, Q8s+, J8s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, A8o+, K9o+, QTo+, J9o+, T9o }

So if this range is reasonable, it wouldn't be a bet for value. This would be especially true if we would have to fold to a checkrasie because this would prevent us from realizing our equity (I would actually call a checkrasie here b/c of your 2 backdoor draws).

So, if the bet is not for value, it should confer other advantages. Here are some possible advantages:

1) You can take a free card on the turn if you wish.
2) It might prevent us from folding the best hand if someone decides to donk the turn after we showed weakness on the flop.
3) If we do have the best hand, we can give worse hands the option of making an incorrect call or a correct fold. If they make a correct fold, our chances of winning the pot improve.

Overall, I feel like the advantages make a bet correct here, but these factors are really hard to quantify.

As for the turn, you say he will not call 2 cold with a gutshot or pair. If he won't, I guess calling is ok. I haven't met many "super passive calling stations" who play that tightly postflop though.

[Trix]

The river reasoning is pretty basic and assumed that you allready knew the arguments for raising and calling.
Basicly, you just give up too much value by calling as this guy probably doesn´t read hands that well and plays too loose-aggr, that was your read right ?
He also didn´t cap preflop, so the hand I´m most worried about is JT. You also dont have to worry much about a 3bet as it will often be KQ which you beat, so you dont need to be ahead as often as in a situation where his 3bet range is around the spot where calling it gets neutral or slighthly -EV.

I dont really expect my flop bet to fold better hands very often against players like that, but it probably does happen sometimes depending on their mood and your image. They will however often call with hands they shouldn´t call with even in a pot of this size and even hands that are behind and correct to call are better off seeing the turn for free.
Betting also avoids leaking info and often gets you to the end cheaper, 3 bets vs 4. Sure, sometimes it will cost you 5 or 6, but still think it´s worth it overall.

I´m doing pretty good, though not playing that much poker lately. Been working on improving other aspects of my life instead really.

How is SoCal treating you ?

-Jens

[Schizo]

[ QUOTE ]
(I would actually call a checkrasie here b/c of your 2 backdoor draws).

[/ QUOTE ]

Forgive me for the basic question but we have about 1.5 outs for the BDFD and .5 out for the restricted BDSD. That's about 2 outs total. So we need 22:1 to call the flop.

9.5 SB PF, 3-5 SB flop dependin if the passive comes with.

that is 12.5:1 or 14.5:1

That is a far cry from the 22:1 we need. I guess if you give us 1 out for the A then we have enough of a reason to call if the passive comes with. Sure he's a lag but if the passive calls will he really checkraise lightly?

HU we simply don't have the odds to call with the BDFD and so we have to fold. Yes, it's more likely hes doing it lightly but we have far less odds. Our ace simply won't supply the 1.5 outs required to call. Is my reasoning right there or am I off on this one?

[The Funky Llama]

i think our ace is good a lot. utg is lagtard so our jack could be good too

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]

Awesome response bro! What I ended up doing was putting him on one of two things, a stone called bluff, or a hand that beats me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get this. What hand were you putting him on that beats you? why can't he have a worse 2 pair? Or just an ace?