My comments on WSEX's latest update and the missing names in the HH's

[mjkidd]

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Sorry my friend but you are incorrect. I could easily build hand histories with names that PT could import and PAH could use within a few short hours. However, do not expect PAH to do this because Josh is respecting WPEX' wish.

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I would pay ~25 dollars for the program that would import WPEX HHs with names to PT.

[MicroBob]

William - most of the bad players who use the HUD's are bad players regardless. The HUD does not EVER make the decision for you.
Lots of HUD-users make lots of bad decisions with or without their HUD's.

If you are losing player without the HUD's you will probably still be one with the HUD's.

[spino1i]

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Your comments are very well-reasoned. You seem to have a vision for your business and you have been kind enough to share it with us. That makes you twice unusual in an industry that abhors being honest with its customers.

Thank you very much!

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All of a sudden it is clear who wants it to study their own play and who wants it to profile other players.

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Now I will be honest--I want to study my own play, I want to datamine, but I don't want anyone else to be able to datamine [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img].

Of course I can't have what I want but I really appreciate what you have done. I'd still be stuck in the microlimits if I couldn't study my play. That's the truth and it makes hand histories essential and storing them to hard drive instead of email makes the game much nicer to play.

No datamining is good for the game and good for your business. It's got all the apple pie virtues that have been discussed. Your site should be fun for the fish and profitable for good players. Can't ask for better than that.

I have one very serious concern. Software workarounds may be developed to allow names to be associated with hand histories. Or someone may develop a tool for datamining directly from the screen/client without using your hand histories. I'm sure a dozen bright people around the world are already working on it.

That would be totally unacceptable. I won't play on a site where some people datamine and use HUDs but I can't. Unfair and intolerable. You have to ensure that your new playing field remains level.

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not gonna happen son. I will be the first to say that I think I know more about computers than the WSEX do and I will make sure that no program is ever detected on my computer. WSEX has dug themselves a grave with this set up, and it will only harm them in the long run when people like me get to use these programs but not many others will..

[d10]

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Software workarounds may be developed to allow names to be associated with hand histories...I'm sure a dozen bright people around the world have already done it

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FYP, at least regarding the name association to HH, I never saw the value of datamining.

[William]

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Sorry my friend but you are incorrect. I could easily build hand histories with names that PT could import and PAH could use within a few short hours. However, do not expect PAH to do this because Josh is respecting WPEX' wish.

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I would pay ~25 dollars for the program that would import WPEX HHs with names to PT.

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WOW, a big spender..... [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img]

people like me get to use these programs but not many others will..

Better 1 or 2 than 5,000 don't you think? You're happy, I'm happy, Wpex is happy... best of worlds...

[NDHand]

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Although I have my doubts about the poker talents of all 2+2'ers across the board

Bingo. 2+2ers = Fish (90% of the time). Most are young kids that have computerized the game. They have no clue....

Can't really see the big fuss. There are like a million sites out there.
(oops, all that nice rake and the site that won't allow your bot to make the decison you can't make alone... sorry, I forgot about that...) [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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Sounds to me like you've never used PT + a HUD if you think losing players are magically turned into winners by purchasing those softwares. Perhaps you're confused with bots? For having played over 50K hands without any software and doing fine before purchasing PT/PAHUD, I can say with confidence that the 80$ I had to shell out has paid itself many, many times over. That, for me, is +EV. Anyway I guess APerfect10 probably had it right with the Emotional vs Logical categories and nothing will make people from either side change their mind.

For the record, I will still be playing at WPEX, even without any HUD support, simply because 100% rakeback, pre-400NL, is more +EV for me than the small advantages I get from using software on Party (and then face massive small-limits rake). I can play just fine w/o software, I just do even better with it, hence why I want to use it.

[spino1i]

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Sorry my friend but you are incorrect. I could easily build hand histories with names that PT could import and PAH could use within a few short hours. However, do not expect PAH to do this because Josh is respecting WPEX' wish.

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I would pay ~25 dollars for the program that would import WPEX HHs with names to PT.

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I would pay 50 dollars for a program WPEX HHs with names to PT. Maybe more. As long as I was convinced it wouldnt be easily killed by an update from WPEX.

[StacysMom]

This board vastly overestimates the skill level of the average poster. Not 1/10 posters here make a decent living off poker.

Secondly, of the few who do, you grossly underestimate the percentage of them who are degenerate gamblers.

Increased poker traffic will only increase sports book traffic. WSEX shoudl do whatever they can to get players at the tables. If they really think no HUDS will bring in players, then so be it. I can't imagine it will.

On a side note, we all really enjoy having poker room reps conversing with us. Even if I disagree, its great to know what the rooms are up to and have someone listen to the players a bit.

[lotus guardian]

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I would pay 50 dollars for a program WPEX HHs with names to PT. Maybe more. As long as I was convinced it wouldnt be easily killed by an update from WPEX.

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Make sure you take notes about all this stuff Mr. Balfour. And keep those programmers up to date so people have some money left to bet on sports.

[repulse]

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... WSEX wants to offer its customers a rake free poker room, not a platform for professionals to data mine and target weaker players with the assistance of automated software. We are trying to offer a level playing field for people who want to play poker, not treat our poker room like a strip mining operation.

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I think there's a big difference between enabling HUDs and allowing data mining (of observed hands). As NDHand mentioned, having a policy similar to Stars' of putting names in HH but disallowing programs that mine observed hands might achieve the goals you outlined.

I agree that allowing people to gather observed hands without playing can create the "strip mining" effect, especially at a smaller room, but if you aren't allowing observed hands, I am not sure how different it would be from now if you did put names in the HH and enable HUDs. The weakest players are still going to get noticed and got noted by the players looking to capitalize on it -- people don't need to reference the HH when they can just see the fish openlimp K4o in EP or something. The fish will still be actively sought out. I think the utility of a HUD matters more when playing against other good players.

That said, the nameless HHs are still an interesting decision and -- even though I am 100% in the "logical" party the APerfect10 describes -- I cannot outright disagree with it. It's good to hear the rationale, we're glad to have you participating in the discussions.