Why is it ok to eat animals? - Page 3

agent_fish · #21 09-09-2006, 02:28 AM

What about the implied contract thing? Does anybody have any thoughts as far as that goes?

FortunaMaximus · #22 09-09-2006, 02:33 AM

One of man's oldest informal agreements are with canines. You basically enter in an agreement with them. You'll provide food and shelter, the dog helps hunt and provides security.

Native Americans loved meat. They also paid appropiate respect in the form of ritualistic apology to the animals.

hmkpoker · #23 09-09-2006, 02:34 AM

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What about the implied contract thing? Does anybody have any thoughts as far as that goes?

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Depends entirely upon social norms. We, being relatively civilized folk, realize that civilization requires respect for private property, in order to assure productivity incentives and a good quality of life. But there are many examples throughout history where this social contract did not exist at all. Slavery and serfdom have been acceptable by social authorities for a very long time.

kurto · #24 09-09-2006, 02:36 AM

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Ask your hippie friend if she thinks it's "ok" for lions to kill antelope in the wild. Isn't that just as bad?

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I think she would say that as humans we have some sort of greater responsibility since we have other ways to acquire nourishment.

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Responsibility to what? Creatures eating other creatures is simply part of the food chain. It is entirely natural for some species to eat other species. Meat is good for you. I vaguely remember reading an article about how man progressed more when they had meat versus farming because of the benefits of meat. But I'd have no idea where to find that article and its 2:30 in the morning. So take that part with a grain of salt.

Regarding our being cognitive... I don't see what that has to do with it. Just because we have the ability to think at a higher level doesn't really change anything. I suppose one could argue that an intelligent dog shouldn't eat a grasshopper because it has higher cognitive abilities? I'm just not sure how our cognitive ability is supposed to impact the matter.

I don't see killing other animals for food as immoral. Unless the majority of the animal kingdom is immoral.

It might be easier to counter her arguments if I actually understood exactly why she objects.

I always get the impression a lot of vegetarians look at animals spiritually in some way I don't understand that makes eating a pig wrong.

I suppose you could try the Christian approach -- God put his creatures on Earth for us?

evolvedForm · #25 09-09-2006, 02:37 AM

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I find (and I believe most people who are generally happy also find) human suffering to be aversive, and wish not to inflict or perpetuate it.

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So there's a drop of humanity in you after all [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]. Why is animal suffering different than human suffering? Or is it just that you can handle seeing animals suffer but not humans? If this is the case I'd wonder if you could call it morality.

agent_fish · #26 09-09-2006, 02:38 AM

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People should be careful, when arguing that it is OK to eat meat, that they don't use an argument that would imply that it is also OK to torture animals to improve the smell of perfume. Unless of course they are not against that either.

On the other hand if you employ an argument that basically says that killing animals is a bit bad but not so bad that it should automatically dissuade someone from eating meat, it then follows that whether it is right for you to do so, depends on how much you want to.

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I would love to hear what DS would argue for regarding this particular issue???

evolvedForm · #27 09-09-2006, 02:41 AM

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Short answer: because we have incisors.

Long answer: because animals don't have the same moral standing as humans. There's no doubt that they experience pain and fear, but they don't experience it in the same way that we do. Being slaughtered isn't nearly so bad if one does not have an ego.

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Then why don't we slaughter children up to, say, 8 years of age? Any later than that and the meat gets sinewy.

FortunaMaximus · #28 09-09-2006, 02:43 AM

A thought:

Earth's just, basically, a layer of biomass wrapped around a heat engine.

Druidism or Gaeans. It's a semantic problem, I reckon.

Either there's individual awareness, or this is an emergent process arising from the biosphere. Probably both. An animal dies naturally, is absorbed into the Earth thru decomposition. Seeds are planted for wheat. You then feed this wheat to a cow, etc.

Vegetarians, I suppose, would rather skip the step in where they eat things with awareness.

agent_fish · #29 09-09-2006, 02:44 AM

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Short answer: because we have incisors.

Long answer: because animals don't have the same moral standing as humans. There's no doubt that they experience pain and fear, but they don't experience it in the same way that we do. Being slaughtered isn't nearly so bad if one does not have an ego.

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Then why don't we slaughter children up to, say, 8 years of age? Any later than that and the meat gets sinewy.

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Because of the moral contract we have with humans?? This is what I'm talking about.

David Sklansky · #30 09-09-2006, 02:55 AM

I have no initial axiom, thus no opinion. However you can take my earlier point one step further and point out that if you think it is wrong to torture animals for better perfume and you therefore need a non tivial reason to eat them, the "other animals eat meat" argument goes out the window. Because they have no choice.