20/180- 89s- I've raised PF- and have an 8hi flop...now what? LAG???

[tedtodd]

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Guys, you don't play the LAG strategy half-assed for half a hand. How does that make sense?

On this hand, either you are play LAG or you are playing TAG. You cannot make this laydown at this point in this line. It makes no sense. Yes, you are maybe a 3:1 dog, maybe even a 4:1 dog, but you are committed to this hand, because semi- bluffing, underpairs and draws are included in villain's range.

If you are playing TAG, you fold preflop. I don't mind the line postflop considering we are playing LAG. But you cannot spew half of villains stack and then suddenly TAG up when you realize you took a mediocre line (in terms of value) a bridge too far.

You are committed to this hand and pot. Get in there.

Bear in mind you have 20 bbs left even if you lose and a LOOSE AS HELL image that you can now work off of when you go TAG AFTER THIS HAND.

If you win this hand, hell, stick with LAG and go ahead and win the damn thing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Part of playing LAGgish is knowing when you're behind and you need to make a good fold. Anyone can raise PF and CBet the flop...but you can't just keep betting when you know you're behind. You need to make those laydowns and use your chips somewhere else.

[0evg0]

Raising this flop is horrendous.

[tedtodd]

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Raising this flop is horrendous.

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Explain?

I've had a pretty tight image, so you'd figure he's put me on 2 broadways...he'll bet a flop that appears to have missed me- right?

I believe calling would've been a better option, but why not send a message that I hit flop, and see if he still thinks he's ahead. His reraise indicated that he was.
Also, by me reraising him, if he just calls here, he's probably checking the turn, giving me the ability to bet again...or to see a free river card.

[nath]

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don't raise the flop without a plan as to how you will react.
i usually call the flop and if he leads into me again i push if i improve at all

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what do you do on a 2o turn?

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"it depends", mostly on how villain reacts. if he bets, i sometimes fold, sometimes push, i would rarely just call. if he checks, again it depends, what i think of villain, any timing tell, etc.

[0evg0]

Pretty tight image? Are you serious? It's a 20/180.

Secondly, decide if your raise is for value or if it's a bluff. You have TP with some decent backdoor draws, yet you refer to a tight image.

I'm not good at explaining it, but this is ludicrously simple. You are taking a hand with value and turning it into trash. Not to mention you are inflating the pot size.

Ask yourself the pros and cons of raising here.

Basically you either are ahead by a bit against a hand like A7s and have just put a noose on your profits on later streets, or you've built the pot and not closed the action against a hand that has you dominated and may very well not allow you to see a turn that is often going to give a legitimate hand.

Basically, when I play a hand like this PF (and I do ALL DAY LONG) I'm not playing it for 1 pair -- even if it is top pair. There are plenty of instances where I'll happily check behind on the flop with a pair on a raggedy board. I'll keep an eye out for something like that within the next day or so.

[tedtodd]

[ QUOTE ]
Pretty tight image? Are you serious? It's a 20/180.

Secondly, decide if your raise is for value or if it's a bluff. You have TP with some decent backdoor draws, yet you refer to a tight image.

I'm not good at explaining it, but this is ludicrously simple. You are taking a hand with value and turning it into trash. Not to mention you are inflating the pot size.

Ask yourself the pros and cons of raising here.

Basically you either are ahead by a bit against a hand like A7s and have just put a noose on your profits on later streets, or you've built the pot and not closed the action against a hand that has you dominated and may very well not allow you to see a turn that is often going to give a legitimate hand.

Basically, when I play a hand like this PF (and I do ALL DAY LONG) I'm not playing it for 1 pair -- even if it is top pair. There are plenty of instances where I'll happily check behind on the flop with a pair on a raggedy board. I'll keep an eye out for something like that within the next day or so.

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Thanks for the complete response.

[0evg0]

I don't know if that's sarcasm or not, but it's the best I've got.

Basically when you play a hand like this, you aren't playing it for one pair. Even if that one pair is the highest on the board.

[bestcellar]

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Guys, you don't play the LAG strategy half-assed for half a hand. How does that make sense?

On this hand, either you are play LAG or you are playing TAG. You cannot make this laydown at this point in this line. It makes no sense. Yes, you are maybe a 3:1 dog, maybe even a 4:1 dog, but you are committed to this hand, because semi- bluffing, underpairs and draws are included in villain's range.

If you are playing TAG, you fold preflop. I don't mind the line postflop considering we are playing LAG. But you cannot spew half of villains stack and then suddenly TAG up when you realize you took a mediocre line (in terms of value) a bridge too far.

You are committed to this hand and pot. Get in there.

Bear in mind you have 20 bbs left even if you lose and a LOOSE AS HELL image that you can now work off of when you go TAG AFTER THIS HAND.

If you win this hand, hell, stick with LAG and go ahead and win the damn thing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of playing LAGgish is knowing when you're behind and you need to make a good fold. Anyone can raise PF and CBet the flop...but you can't just keep betting when you know you're behind. You need to make those laydowns and use your chips somewhere else.

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I still don't understand how a fold mathematically makes any sense whatsoever.

[tedtodd]

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[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guys, you don't play the LAG strategy half-assed for half a hand. How does that make sense?

On this hand, either you are play LAG or you are playing TAG. You cannot make this laydown at this point in this line. It makes no sense. Yes, you are maybe a 3:1 dog, maybe even a 4:1 dog, but you are committed to this hand, because semi- bluffing, underpairs and draws are included in villain's range.

If you are playing TAG, you fold preflop. I don't mind the line postflop considering we are playing LAG. But you cannot spew half of villains stack and then suddenly TAG up when you realize you took a mediocre line (in terms of value) a bridge too far.

You are committed to this hand and pot. Get in there.

Bear in mind you have 20 bbs left even if you lose and a LOOSE AS HELL image that you can now work off of when you go TAG AFTER THIS HAND.

If you win this hand, hell, stick with LAG and go ahead and win the damn thing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of playing LAGgish is knowing when you're behind and you need to make a good fold. Anyone can raise PF and CBet the flop...but you can't just keep betting when you know you're behind. You need to make those laydowns and use your chips somewhere else.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't understand how a fold mathematically makes any sense whatsoever.

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It's about recognizing a mistake as well as tournament survival.

If I fold here- I still have 8000 in chips, I believe that's still above average. I need to raise another 3190 (his remaining stack) to win a pot of 9790 if he calls. 3:1 pot odds.

This is the range that we've discussed. I'm nearly a 4:1 dog if it's correct.

Board: 7c 8h 3d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 22.4194 % 18.78% 03.64% { 9d8d }
Hand 2: 77.5806 % 73.94% 03.64% { JJ-77, A8s, J8s, T8s, 98s, 87s, A8o }

[bestcellar]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guys, you don't play the LAG strategy half-assed for half a hand. How does that make sense?

On this hand, either you are play LAG or you are playing TAG. You cannot make this laydown at this point in this line. It makes no sense. Yes, you are maybe a 3:1 dog, maybe even a 4:1 dog, but you are committed to this hand, because semi- bluffing, underpairs and draws are included in villain's range.

If you are playing TAG, you fold preflop. I don't mind the line postflop considering we are playing LAG. But you cannot spew half of villains stack and then suddenly TAG up when you realize you took a mediocre line (in terms of value) a bridge too far.

You are committed to this hand and pot. Get in there.

Bear in mind you have 20 bbs left even if you lose and a LOOSE AS HELL image that you can now work off of when you go TAG AFTER THIS HAND.

If you win this hand, hell, stick with LAG and go ahead and win the damn thing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of playing LAGgish is knowing when you're behind and you need to make a good fold. Anyone can raise PF and CBet the flop...but you can't just keep betting when you know you're behind. You need to make those laydowns and use your chips somewhere else.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still don't understand how a fold mathematically makes any sense whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's about recognizing a mistake as well as tournament survival.

If I fold here- I still have 8000 in chips, I believe that's still above average. I need to raise another 3190 (his remaining stack) to win a pot of 9790 if he calls. 3:1 pot odds.

This is the range that we've discussed. I'm nearly a 4:1 dog if it's correct.

Board: 7c 8h 3d
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 22.4194 % 18.78% 03.64% { 9d8d }
Hand 2: 77.5806 % 73.94% 03.64% { JJ-77, A8s, J8s, T8s, 98s, 87s, A8o }

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First of all, the pot is 8790, not 9790. You are getting 2.8:1 pot odds.

Second of all, assigning a zero percent chance to him being on a straight draw, lower pair, or a pure bluff (because he thinks YOU are on a bluff too) is pretty foolish in my opinion. That range is absurdly narrow.

Third of all, how does tournament survival argument apply when we have 20 bbs even if we call and lose?