Why you guys aren't crushing these Microlimit games...

[ThrillFactor]

the post about "charging the flush draws" a couple of days ago. Truly two of the most informative I've read in the last twelve months. Thanks so much for your continued efforts on this forum.

***Newbies*** study every word; and do yourselves a favor and search out the flush post I mentioned.

[bunky9590]

he's 5:1 on the gutshot only on the flop 11:1 on the turn, I didn't count the overcards as outs for the reasons you stated.

[kiemo]

Thanks for the info.

I dont do very well at micro limits and this is probably a leak in my game I can fix.

[slavic]

If he had a high pocket pair (likely), the 8s and 9s aren't really outs.

What do you know that excludes these as outs? So far you have only called and have no information as to the betters hand other than he liked it preflop and felt obligated to bet it post flop.

[BaronVonCP]

Even Lee Jones would make that flop call.

[chesspain]

Major,

Thanks for taking the time to post this well-written lesson. I do have to admit, however, that I initially felt somewhat rattled by your words, for although I believe that I usually am fairly cognizant of pot odds when it comes to chasing, I tend to underuse checkraises, and I also tend to laydown on the river for one bet when it seems clear that my second/third pair is beaten.

In addition, soon after reading your post, I proceeded to lose approx. 12BB in a Party 1/2 game, in part due to playing A4s from MP in a soft game and then getting dominated after the flop. Oh well [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Following this discombulation, I rested for a few hours, and then hosted my bimonthly 1/2 home game. I reminded myself to play aggressively when the opportunities would present themselves.

During one of the final orbits of the night, we were playing seven-handed HE and I was dealt AJo in the BB. I believe four or five others called, and I checked. The flop came AJ7r. I checked, solid ABC player to my left raised, an LAG coldcalled, folded back to me and I checkraised, to which LAG muttered loudly:

"Man, that's like the fifteenth time you checkraised tonight; 'Yeah, come to my house, everybody, so I can checkraise you.'"

That was the best poker compliment I ever received [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ramjam]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
During one of the final orbits of the night, we were playing seven-handed HE and I was dealt AJo in the BB. I believe four or five others called, and I checked. The flop came AJ7r. I checked, solid ABC player to my left raised, an LAG coldcalled, folded back to me and I checkraised, to which LAG muttered loudly:

"Man, that's like the fifteenth time you checkraised tonight; 'Yeah, come to my house, everybody, so I can checkraise you.'"

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The 3-bet checkraise! That gives me the sweetest feeling.

[chesspain]

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During one of the final orbits of the night, we were playing seven-handed HE and I was dealt AJo in the BB. I believe four or five others called, and I checked. The flop came AJ7r. I checked, solid ABC player to my left raised, an LAG coldcalled, folded back to me and I checkraised, to which LAG muttered loudly:

"Man, that's like the fifteenth time you checkraised tonight; 'Yeah, come to my house, everybody, so I can checkraise you.'"

[/ QUOTE ]

The 3-bet checkraise! That gives me the sweetest feeling.

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Oops, actually it wasn't a three-bet. ABC player bet after I checked, and it was coldcalled before it was folded back to me. Sorry for the confusion; I hope it doesn't ruin the story [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[Zetack]

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In the past few weeks, I have seen approximately two zillion posts from players that folded top pair or an overpair in a big pot for just one bet. This is on the flop, on the turn, and on the river.

"
When the pot is big (and big essentially means as little as that there was a preflop raise) you need to focus on winning the pot. Big pots are the time to play aggressively and maximize your chance to win, not to save bets. Folding is saving bets. You should NOT be looking to fold in big pots... you should be constantly thinking about how you are going to win it, even if you don't have the best hand sometimes.

There was a post just this morning where someone limped in with A3s on the button after two limpers. The big blind raise behind and everyone called. The flop was AQ2, and the action went BB bet, one limper called, and it was your action. You have top frickin pair in a big (i.e. raised) pot, and it is one bet to you. The BB's bet shows no more strength than what he showed when he raised before the flop. He could easily have KQ or TT or 76s. The limper called... that means he has.. well, two cards. You are getting 11-1 on a call, and did I mention that you have top frickin pair?



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What I would simply point out is that you have to know something about pot odds. Not everything, surely, but if you don't at least know the basic odds on the common situations that you face all the time, you are going to end up losing a lot of money by either being in hands you shouldn't be in, or ducking out of hands you should stay in.

This A-3 suited hand is an interesting example. Although I'm not sure its the best example for your point. Here's your basic delimna with it, your Ace no kicker hands are a good way to lose a lot of money hand after hand. Say this is a .25/.50 game. So far you've thrown in 50 cents of your stake into the pot. If you call here, and then call a turn bet and a river bet thats an <font color="red"> additional </font> dollar twenty five you're putting in on a hand that you can't like very much. Chasing like that will drive you broke. Chase and lose about three pots like that like that and you probably have to win at least two decent sized pots just to break even without even factoring in other pots you get involved in where you miss the flop entirely, and the slow steady drain of the blinds. (of course you could win a monster pot somewhere along the line but how many of those do you get?)

So if you fold now you can get involved in 2.5 more raised pots for the same amount of money where maybe the flop hits you hard, or 5 more pots where you get to limp in and again get a flop that you really like, instead of a marginal flop.

ok, there's the case for folding. I don't think its a bad one. Playing this pot going in, what you really wanted was a big flop like a flush draw or a two pair or trips (preferably trip threes).

However, you may, and this is why majorkong's advice has merit, have the pot odds to continue to play. You might have the best hand with the top pair. Further, you can still improve--you have five outs to make two pair or trips (of course if you're behind now to a higer ace, trip aces are just going to trap you for a lot of money). Five outs is a bit better than 8.5-1. What are your pot odds? 10.5-1. Bingo...a clear call.

So I think majorkong's advice would be better stated as: pay attention to the pot odds. Saying, "don't fold so much" is just an invitation to people to start getting into trouble.
Although, in this specific example, I still don't know that calling is a great thing to do...what happens on 4th and 5th street if you don't improve? The play is much more difficult than if you have top pair with a big kicker. Sure, if there was one of your suit on the flop and if the turn has another one of your suit, now you do possibly have 14 outs to improve on the river and can call if the BB bets and the limper calls. If not....now its 14.5 small bets to you and you have to put in two more....you don't have pot odds anymore, and I wouldn't put much stock in implied odds because what's the limper calling with on the flop and now the turn? Looks a lot like an ace that he doesn't like much (but its got to be better than yours)--but because he's acting in front of you you can't drive him out if he's called the BB. Now not only don't you have implied odds to call the 8.5 to one, it looks like you may not have 8.5 to one at all because making trip aces just gives him a better hand to take your money with.

Ok, sure its a big pot, but at the flop you just have 2 small bets in it. It'd be nice to win it, but its gonna hurt to lose it when you triple your loss (from fifty cents to a buck seventy five--one more small bet and two big bets) and you simply don't have a strong hand.
Ok. So what to do, what to do. majorkong doesn't say what to do on later streets. You could try this, given that you have position. Call the flop. If you don't improve and BB bets and is called--you fold. But if its checked to you on the turn--Ah ha! Now it looks like the BB has a big pair rather than a big ace, the limper may have still have a weak ace, but you aren't as convinced of that as you would be if he'd called another bet. Now you have options.

Or if calling and folding to a bet on the turn still seems weak to you--Raise on the flop. Unfortunately you won't be able to drive out a weak ace, since the limper is already in for a bet but it helps to define you opponents and may let you drive out the weak ace on the turn if they check to you and you choose to bet rather than take a free card. This is the more expensive option, however and its difficult to know what the best turn play is.

If you raise, you may get called and then either bet at or checked to on the turn. Or you may get re-raised by the big blind. It'll cost you more now, but you do have more information.

Actually, the more I look at this the less I like it as an example. Because trip aces may help one of your opponents more than you, this is a tricky hand with a lot of permutations to it. Not a straightforward fold, although, I like that option better than majorkong does, but tricky.

Better examples would be hands that look real likely not to be the best hand but that you have the odds to improve and the improvement probably does give you the best hand. Middle pairs in 10 bet pots, gutshots in 14 bet pots, those kind of things.

I still believe though, that in low limit chasing too much will get you killed.

[colgin]