$55: raised on the river

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]
Assuming you folded the river I really liked how you played this hand. You are losing a lot of value from mediocre hands by check calling the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, what mediocre hands make it this far and call the river without having improved? K9? KT? AQ? I'm not convinced that betting is going to get a ton of value out of worse hands because I don't think there are too many worse hands left that can call, and some of the ones that can (I'm looking at QJ here) raise you on this river because there's zero reason to suspect you just backdoored a flush or picked up a straight. In fact, for that reason that's a pretty nice river to bluff on; nice enough that in this spot I think you should probably call.

I, too, prefer a check/call line, or betting and calling (if he had pushed I'd probably fold.)

[durron597]

I don't see why we're folding getting over 3:1 when he could easily have a QJ type hand (or is simply bluffing at the river because of how scary that card is to a lot of hands)

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see why we're folding getting over 3:1 when he could easily have a QJ type hand (or is simply bluffing at the river because of how scary that card is to a lot of hands)

[/ QUOTE ]

Finally, someone made the argument! This may be correct, but I sure felt beat at the time...

Here's a hand from last night that has me on the other end...


PartyPoker $55 Speed Tournament, Big Blind is t40 (10 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t2000)
UTG+1 (t2000)
MP1 (t2000)
MP2 (t2000)
Hero (t2000)
CO+1 (t2000)
CO (t2000)
Button (t2000)
SB (t2000)
BB (t2000)

Preflop: Hero is in MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, MP1 calls t40, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, Hero calls t40, <font color="gray">CO+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, SB calls t20, BB checks

Flop: (t160) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t160) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets t50</font>, Hero calls t50, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>

River: (t260) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="red">MP1 bets t125</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to t425</font>...

[bennies]

[ QUOTE ]

PartyPoker $55 Speed Tournament, Big Blind is t40 (10 handed) Converter on pregopoker.com

UTG (t2000)
UTG+1 (t2000)
MP1 (t2000)
MP2 (t2000)
Hero (t2000)
CO+1 (t2000)
CO (t2000)
Button (t2000)
SB (t2000)
BB (t2000)

Preflop: Hero is in MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
<font color="gray">UTG folds</font>, <font color="gray">UTG+1 folds</font>, MP1 calls t40, <font color="gray">MP2 folds</font>, Hero calls t40, <font color="gray">CO+1 folds</font>, <font color="gray">CO folds</font>, <font color="gray">Button folds</font>, SB calls t20, BB checks

Flop: (t160) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks

Turn: (t160) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="red">MP1 bets t50</font>, Hero calls t50, <font color="gray">SB folds</font>, <font color="gray">BB folds</font>

River: (t260) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
<font color="red">MP1 bets t125</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to t425</font>...

[/ QUOTE ]

What hands do you want him to fold? I put him on a steal pretty often here so a raise to 275 or so should be plenty.

[gumpzilla]

Looks like it's probably pretty good. It needs to work slightly more than 1/2 the time to be profitable; I think you'll be on the right side of that, but probably not by much.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
What hands do you want him to fold? I put him on a steal pretty often here so a raise to 275 or so should be plenty.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to see a T fold, pocket pairs like 77, and perhaps even a J. Raising to more than 275 is required to get some of those folds, but perhaps somewhere in the middle will do the job and lower the percentage I need to win that Gump mentioned.

[Phil Van Sexton]

I would've bet the river too. I'm not sure about calling the raise. I guess I'd have to be there. Probably 75%fold/25%call.

Nobody bets this flop? I think I would.

[gumpzilla]

[ QUOTE ]

Nobody bets this flop? I think I would.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's a very good one for us to bet. The small paired board with a flush draw seems like it's going to give a lot of hands good reason to stay.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Nobody bets this flop? I think I would.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it's a very good one for us to bet. The small paired board with a flush draw seems like it's going to give a lot of hands good reason to stay.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was talking about the OP which is unpaired and rainbow.

That being said, I don't mind if people call with a draw. It's better than letting them check with a draw.

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
I would've bet the river too. I'm not sure about calling the raise. I guess I'd have to be there. Probably 75%fold/25%call.

Nobody bets this flop? I think I would.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe PVS is referring to the hand in the initial post.

Sometimes I bet the flop, sometimes I don't. I think this is a good spot and a reasonable board to mix up your play. Betting the flop tends to take the pot down or build a bigger pot that I might not want to be a part of. Checking allows us to extract some more value, even if this sometimes means flailing about on the turn and river trying to figure out where you're at.