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#21
08-20-2006, 02:46 PM
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Re: How would an AC society deal with Chilean Sea Bass?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] It's not possible? There are large estates that have various-sized bodies of waters on their property now. Owning bodies of water is not impossible. Enforcing the ownership may be difficult at first, but enforcment would likely be taken into account by those looking to buy/homestead parcels of ocean. [/ QUOTE ] Those estates don't own the ocean though, they only own the land. [/ QUOTE ] Do they or do they not also own the water on the land? If not, can anyone go swimming or fishing without their permission? My grandparents have a cabin up north that has a small pond (maybe 50 ft by 25 ft). I'm quite sure that if we found someone just swimming around in it and they refused to leave, the cops would be called. Just take this concept to the next step. [ QUOTE ] They can't extract resources from the ocean without a license from the government. [/ QUOTE ] You're not arguing that the reason a person can't own a part of the ocean is because the government requires a license to extract resources, are you? Surely you can see what's wrong with that argument. 
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#22
08-20-2006, 03:01 PM
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Re: How would an AC society deal with Chilean Sea Bass?
In the case of your grandparents, there is no way to get to the water without trespassing. I live in Northern Wisconsin and have 300 feet of riverfront property. I have people intertubing along my stretch of river all summer. I have no legal recourse against them.
[ QUOTE ] You're not arguing that the reason a person can't own a part of the ocean is because the government requires a license to extract resources, are you? [/ QUOTE ] No. I'm saying they don't own the ocean because they don't have rights to extract resources. You were saying that people already have property rights to the oceans (citing beachfront property) and that's not the case. They own the land, not the water. There would have to be a radical change in the legal system to enable such a system. Until that happens, I don't see how ACers can have a problem with government regulation designed to protect resources.
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#23
08-20-2006, 03:28 PM
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Re: How would an AC society deal with Chilean Sea Bass?
How can you seriously compare corn and sea bass?
People are greedy and irrational. Someone who wants to make a quick buck isn't going to not fish for the future.
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#24
08-20-2006, 03:30 PM
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Re: How would an AC society deal with Chilean Sea Bass?
[ QUOTE ]
You were saying that people already have property rights to the oceans (citing beachfront property) and that's not the case. [/ QUOTE ] I said no such thing. I acknowledge that the ocean is unowned. [ QUOTE ] There would have to be a radical change in the legal system to enable such a system. Until that happens, I don't see how ACers can have a problem with government regulation designed to protect resources. [/ QUOTE ] That's exactly what ACers are arguing for so it seems like a poor argument against such ownership. Yes, this would require a shift in the legal thinking about the ocean, but the point that I'm trying to make is that it would be better than the status quo which incentivizes things like overfishing and pollution. [ QUOTE ] I live in Northern Wisconsin [/ QUOTE ] If you don't mind my asking, where do you live? My home is in Green Bay (Ashwaubenon technically) but I go to UW-Whitewater.
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#25
08-20-2006, 03:33 PM
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Re: How would an AC society deal with Chilean Sea Bass?
[ QUOTE ]
How can you seriously compare corn and sea bass? People are greedy and irrational. Someone who wants to make a quick buck isn't going to not fish for the future. [/ QUOTE ] The type of capital required to buy up and protect a part of the ocean doesn't really lend itself well to the get-rich-quick crowd, imo. Perhaps you can tell me why corn and sea bass are so radically different as far as property rights and ownership. If it's the plant/animal difference, you can't deny that there are farms that deal with raising animals for the purpose of food. So honestly, what's the difference?
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#26
08-20-2006, 04:10 PM
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Re: How would an AC society deal with Chilean Sea Bass?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] You were saying that people already have property rights to the oceans (citing beachfront property) and that's not the case. [/ QUOTE ] I said no such thing. I acknowledge that the ocean is unowned. [ QUOTE ] There would have to be a radical change in the legal system to enable such a system. Until that happens, I don't see how ACers can have a problem with government regulation designed to protect resources. [/ QUOTE ] That's exactly what ACers are arguing for so it seems like a poor argument against such ownership. Yes, this would require a shift in the legal thinking about the ocean, but the point that I'm trying to make is that it would be better than the status quo which incentivizes things like overfishing and pollution. [ QUOTE ] I live in Northern Wisconsin [/ QUOTE ] If you don't mind my asking, where do you live? My home is in Green Bay (Ashwaubenon technically) but I go to UW-Whitewater. [/ QUOTE ] Wow, we've been having a serious communication problem. We basically agree on most parts then. I think that private ownership has potential but I am still unclear as to how the ecosystem can be protected under that system without some regulation. I live on the Flambeau river about 10 miles south west of Ladysmith.
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#27
08-20-2006, 04:59 PM
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Re: How would an AC society deal with Chilean Sea Bass?
[ QUOTE ]
I think that private ownership has potential but I am still unclear as to how the ecosystem can be protected under that system without some regulation. [/ QUOTE ] Wacki can probably go into detail about it, but I believe the oceans are presently experiencing quite a bit of devastation as an unowned resource. Perhaps it's time to give ownership a try? [ QUOTE ] I live on the Flambeau river about 10 miles south west of Ladysmith. [/ QUOTE ] Cool, I've canoed (sp?) down the Flambeau 5 or 6 years ago. Great trip.
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#28
08-20-2006, 09:08 PM
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Re: How would an AC society deal with Chilean Sea Bass?
[ QUOTE ]
I think you're getting bogged down in the details and ignoring the main idea. The idea is that the market will find a way. [/ QUOTE ] Don't ACists frequently accuse their opponents of abject handwaving? Perhaps ACists find their arguments so irrefutable and superior because, of course, no one can refute the what are essentially tenants of faith; no one can disprove "the market will find a way" anymore than they can disprove claims that "Jesus will find a way" to make ocean fences work.
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#29
08-20-2006, 10:06 PM
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Re: How would an AC society deal with Chilean Sea Bass?
Corn cannot be over harvested, as it is an annual. Corn is in no danger of going extinct. Sea Bass take a few years to mature. If they are over fished, they won't be able to have babies.
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#30
08-21-2006, 12:17 AM
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Re: How would an AC society deal with Chilean Sea Bass?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I think you're getting bogged down in the details and ignoring the main idea. The idea is that the market will find a way. [/ QUOTE ] Don't ACists frequently accuse their opponents of abject handwaving? Perhaps ACists find their arguments so irrefutable and superior because, of course, no one can refute the what are essentially tenants of faith; no one can disprove "the market will find a way" anymore than they can disprove claims that "Jesus will find a way" to make ocean fences work. [/ QUOTE ] Besides, even if the sea bass problem were solved, there will always be (for the foreseeable future) things that are simply beyond the means of our technology to own in any meaningful sense. I suppose the utopians would have us start selling acreage on Pluto right now.
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