Flop decision

[mmcd]

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While I agree that trying to get maniac and LP to fold is going against their nature, most players aren't going to take the time to calculate out that they're getting 12:1 to call 2 cold, they'll just see bets and raises after preflop 3bets and 4bets, and start to think that maybe J9 doesn't look so hot.


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I don't think they'll calculate their odds and decide to call because they're getting 12-1, I think they'll decide to call because they both probably have 2 cards higher than 5 (maybe even with some sort of backdoor straight or flush draw)and they're loose retards.


And I'm not hoping the maniac stays passive on the flop and gets aggro on the turn. I'm hoping he stays passive on the flop and bb fires again on the turn so we can face the two players behind us with 2 big bets.

[Surf]

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And I'm not hoping the maniac stays passive on the flop and gets aggro on the turn. I'm hoping he stays passive on the flop and bb fires again on the turn so we can face the two players behind us with 2 big bets.

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Right, sorry. I guess we're stuck here trying to get players to do things against their nature. We want the bluff-happy maniac to be passive, and we want the loose/bad calling stationy ones to fold. Both a difficult task, I just think it's easier (and more likely) to achieve the latter than the former.

You may disagree, at which point we've reached an impasse. I think your reasoning is good, and in most cases I agree with you that waiting for the turn to raise is the better play, I just think calling is going to get us into a bigger mess than we are already in.

Surf

[Spy Dog]

I prefer calling this flop. In this big pot you aren't going to shut out the maniac or the passive guy by raising. However, if you call the maniac or passive guy might raise and then we will get a trustful response from the BB. If he 3-bets then we have an easy fold and it only cost us 1 SB. If everyone just calls then we can attack a blank turn.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

for those who advocate calling the flop and raising a "safe" turn, there will be so many times that when we are ahead of bb's AK or whatever, we won't even get an opportunity to raise the turn because bb will see he's gotten called in every spot and decide to check the turn.

with that in mind, you must take into account how often he will continue to bet the turn with a worse hand than yours.

i am suprised nobody has mentioned this AT ALL.

[DeathDonkey]

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I prefer calling this flop. In this big pot you aren't going to shut out the maniac or the passive guy by raising. However, if you call the maniac or passive guy might raise and then we will get a trustful response from the BB. If he 3-bets then we have an easy fold and it only cost us 1 SB. If everyone just calls then we can attack a blank turn.

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Ditto.

-DeathDonkey

[Hobbs.]

I agree with victor. I'd raise the flop and hope that maniac 3-bets.

[mntbikr15]

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I prefer calling this flop. In this big pot you aren't going to shut out the maniac or the passive guy by raising. However, if you call the maniac or passive guy might raise and then we will get a trustful response from the BB. If he 3-bets then we have an easy fold and it only cost us 1 SB. If everyone just calls then we can attack a blank turn.

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Ditto.

-DeathDonkey

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Prob is with everone calling we have no clue what a blank turn is....

Put me in the raise or fold camp, in that order.

[MATT111]

We have to raise this flop imo.
We are certainly not happy if CO decides to call with J9 but
1) even a retard like him may figure that he may pay 4 SB to see if he hits the turn and still looses
2) he may decide to call with A3 too which we appreciate.

Waiting for the turn to raise is a bad idea here as a turn bet by the BB means we are toast at least 80% of the time.

Folding is terrible here.

[AdamL]

Call and raise a blank turn, or call and call a blank turn. And fold a bad turn.

For the actual flop plan, you simply don't have very much control of the betting due to your position. So forget trying to, and just figure out when the other guy is most likely to be putting in bets when he's behind. The answer is: when you are just calling.

[The Funky Llama]

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I prefer calling this flop. In this big pot you aren't going to shut out the maniac or the passive guy by raising. However, if you call the maniac or passive guy might raise and then we will get a trustful response from the BB. If he 3-bets then we have an easy fold and it only cost us 1 SB. If everyone just calls then we can attack a blank turn.

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I agree with that...I think there's a ton of value in being able to fold when it is 2 back to us because I believe that will happen fairly often and I don't think BB will 3bet AQ/AK very often.

I also think BB will follow through on the turn with AK a high percentage of the time (as he should) and if he doesn't, I don't think its a huge deal.